Árpád-house, the Ugro-Iranian dynasty

[Blondie]

Okay this thread is about Hungary not about turkish diaspora and domestic policy.

[Mingle]

It's kinda weird that even if the thread is about the Ugric and Iranian roots of Old Hungarians, all discussion was mostly about the Turkic side. Not as if Turks didn't contribute to Old Hungarians at all, but this new genetic study was presenting the hypothesis of the "Árpád" gene to originate in Bactria, a historically very Iranian region. What is quite interesting that Hungarians share the same flag colors and patterns with other modern Iranic people:

Hungary:


Tajikistan:


Kurdistan:


Iran

Hungary has nothing to do with Iranic nations at all. The colors are a coincidence. The Old Hungarians were mostly Ugric and Turkic later absorbing Germans and Slavs.

The haplogroup that Arpad belonged to likely originated in Bactria, but that was thousands of years ago. It was brought to Hungary by Turks or Ugrics that assimilated that haplogroup. Saying Old Hungarians had Iranic roots because of it is like saying that Balkaners with E-V13 have Amazigh (Berber) roots cause E-V13 originated in Northwest Africa.

[Blondie]

Hungary has nothing to do with Iranic nations at all. The colors are a coincidence. The Old Hungarians were mostly Ugric and Turkic later absorbing Germans and Slavs.

The haplogroup that Arpad belonged to likely originated in Bactria, but that was thousands of years ago. It was brought to Hungary by Turks or Ugrics that assimilated that haplogroup. Saying Old Hungarians had Iranic roots because of it is like saying that Balkaners with E-V13 have Amazigh (Berber) roots cause E-V13 originated in Northwest Africa.

By the way jassic hungarians have real iranic roots:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jasz_people

[Mingle]

By the way jassic hungarians have real iranic roots:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jasz_people

The Jasz claim descent from Ossetians.

Ossetians are not Iranic in anything but language. They're basically Circassians that switched language due to Iranic (Sarmatian) influence. It's like the Gagauzes who have no Turkic genetics but are considered Turkic due to their language.

So the only Iranic thing about Ossetians is their language. Once you get rid of the linguistic aspect (like in the case of Jasz people who don't speak Iranic anymore), then there's nothing Iranic about them. I just see them as normal Hungarians with some North Caucasian ancestry that makes them a bit different. It would be interesting to see how much Ossetian ancestry they have. I would guess maybe 15-20%, but it's a wild guess.

So in short, Jasz people have partial ancestry from Iranicized Circassians.

In the end, they do have some connection to Iranic-speaking people that other Hungarians don't have. I just forgot about them in my initial post.

[blogen]

Hungary has nothing to do with Iranic nations at all. The colors are a coincidence. The Old Hungarians were mostly Ugric and Turkic later absorbing Germans and Slavs.

The haplogroup that Arpad belonged to likely originated in Bactria, but that was thousands of years ago. It was brought to Hungary by Turks or Ugrics that assimilated that haplogroup. Saying Old Hungarians had Iranic roots because of it is like saying that Balkaners with E-V13 have Amazigh (Berber) roots cause E-V13 originated in Northwest Africa.

The Iranian substrate is the most significant subsrate in the Hungarian language. Much more than the Slavonic or the significance of the Turkic loanvords! The neighbours of the Magyars and their ancestors:

3500 years proto-Aryan, Aryan, post-Aryan neighbourhood of our Uralic, Finno-Ugric and Ugric ancestors with constant Iranian influx to their ethnogenesis
2000 years of east Indo-Iranian (Scythian, Sarmatian) neighbourhood of the ancient Magyars with constant Iranian influx to our ethnogenesis
+ Alanian, Khorezmian/Kabar elements joined to the Magyars

Total intensive Iranian contacts: 5500 years +500 years of the Kabars. Huge grammatical changings in the Hungarian language.

The Hungarian language is the written source of the Aryan language of the Andronovo peoples. There is a significant Indo-Iranian substrate in the Hungarian language from the Andronovo horizont. And of course from the post-Andronovo Iranian horizonts too.

There are only two substrate in the Hungarian language, the Iranian and the Slavic. The Iranian is the most significant, the Slavonic is the less. Our Ugric ancestors were neighbours with the Andronovo peoples in Western Siberia, this was the reason of this very strong connection. Basically this survive of the Ugric language was a a great luck, because this substrate is very significant, what means we lived under direct Aryan control with very huge cultural pressure.

Some example from this substrate:
b-, d-, g- word initiative vowels
*p>f, *t>δ, *k>h, *s>h consonant shifts
–ni verbal end
etc.

Basically this Aryan/Iranian substrate is the fundamental difference between the Fennic and the Ugric languages.

This fortification was vara, between the old Aryans, because we call vár:


This armour was veretra, because the Hungarian word is vért:



This wagon was chakra, becaust the Hungarian word is szekér:

etc.

1250 years of Slavonic contacts. Small grammatical changings with lot of loanwords.

--- substrateless contacts with huge cultural influx:

1100 years of German contacts, Lot of loanwords without grammatical changings.

1000 years of Latin contacts. Lot of loanwords without grammatical changings.

50 years of Americanisation. Lot of loanwords.

Substrateless contacts without intensive cultural contacts:

1000 years of Turkic contacts between 250-1250AD, but the significant part of this contact was only 300 years between the 9th century and the 11th century. The Turks were mostly assimilated hosted elements (Pechenegs, etc.). Many loanwords but zero grammatical changings and mostly loanwords only. 1000 years from the Huns to the pechenegs was very huge interval and only loanwords in the contacts. Its like the French, Italian or Greek loanwords in the Hungarian language: new words only without cultural intercourse or only very small influx.

The whole Turko-Magyar theory is totally bullshit. The Turks were not significant part of our ethnogenesis and cultural transformation. They were only a 19th century imagination about the steppe.

[Chelubey]

https://xn--80ad7bbk5c.xn--p1ai/ru/c...gerskom-yazyke

Out of almost 800 Turkic loanwords in Hungarian, Gombots singles out 227 words, which, in his opinion, are characterized by the so-called Old Chuvash peculiarities.

I doubt that there are 800 words of Iranian origin in the Hungarian language (some words of Iranian origin got into the Hungarian language through the Turkic languages).
The exaggeration of the Iranian component in Hungarian language is just fu..king propaganda .

[blogen]

https://xn--80ad7bbk5c.xn--p1ai/ru/c...gerskom-yazyke

I doubt that there are 800 words of Iranian origin in the Hungarian language (some words of Iranian origin got into the Hungarian language through the Turkic languages).
The exaggeration of the Iranian component in Hungarian language is just fu..king propaganda .

The number of the loanwords are irrevelant, because the grammatical changings, the substrates matter! We have a brutal Iranian substrate but zero Turkic substrate, so there was not significant contact behind the Turkic loanwords.

[Chelubey]

The number of the loanwords are irrevelant, because the grammatical changings, the substrates matter! We have a brutal Iranian substrate but zero Turkic substrate, so there was not significant contact behind the Turkic loanwords.

*s>h consonant shifts

Bashkirian,Yakutian,Evenki phenomen;

*k>h

wide-spreaded turkic phenomen;(kan,han-king)

t>δ

it exists in some turkic languages(Bashkirian,Turkmenian);

*p>f

i think this is germanic influence

[Dunai]

Hungary has nothing to do with Iranic nations at all. The colors are a coincidence. The Old Hungarians were mostly Ugric and Turkic later absorbing Germans and Slavs.

The haplogroup that Arpad belonged to likely originated in Bactria, but that was thousands of years ago. It was brought to Hungary by Turks or Ugrics that assimilated that haplogroup. Saying Old Hungarians had Iranic roots because of it is like saying that Balkaners with E-V13 have Amazigh (Berber) roots cause E-V13 originated in Northwest Africa.

The modern flags are surely an interesting curiosity, that's why I posted it, however deep in history the Old Iranian language(s) definitely left their mark on Old Hungarians, as any Hungarian linguist clearly states that Old Hungarians had contact with Old Iranian speakers the earliest out of any none-Uralic people. Old Hungarian-Old Iranian connections are most likely as old as those with fellow Finno-Ugrics, after Hungarian became a standalone language 2-3 millennium ago. I also wouldn't overstate its significance, but since so rarely anybody discusses it, I thought I bring this up in a thread with such a title.

[Mingle]

i think this is germanic influence

Most likely. Also, the [p] evolving into an [f] isn't an Iranic feature. Most/many Iranic languages don't have the [f] sound. The sound didn't even exist in Proto-Iranic. The [p] turning into an [f] sometimes just happened in Persian cause of Arabic influence.

Also, I'm not even sure if the other consonant shifts he described to be occurring in Iranic are actually recorded patterns among Iranic languages considering the rookie mistake he made above.

The modern flags are surely an interesting curiosity, that's why I posted it, however deep in history the Old Iranian language(s) definitely left their mark on Old Hungarians, as any Hungarian linguist clearly states that Old Hungarians had contact with Old Iranian speakers the earliest out of any none-Uralic people. Old Hungarian-Old Iranian connections are most likely as old as those with fellow Finno-Ugrics, after Hungarian became a standalone language 2-3 millennium ago. I also wouldn't overstate its significance, but since so rarely anybody discusses it, I thought I bring this up in a thread with such a title.

It's true that there were some historical interactions between early Uralics and early Iranics (as can be seen in some Iranic loans like orja which came from the Indo-Iranic aryas), but it was very limited. And it wasn't even direct influence since it came via early Uralics to Hungarians, not directly from Iranics to Hungarians since interaction between the two groups occurred before the existence of Old Hungarians.

Other types of Iranic influence (like the haplogroup Arpad possesses) came via Turks. So there is a tiny bit of Iranic influence, but in your previous post, it seemed like you were exaggerating that influence and implying that Hungarians have Iranic roots, which definitely isn't true.

And the flag colors are not related to that influence you described since there was never any consciousness of Iranic identity among Hungarians. The colors are similar by coincidence. It's like saying that Madagascar is Iranic cause its flag has the same color scheme.

Also, red-white-green aren't even official Iranic colors. They're just used by a few Iranic nations today. Historically, many Iranic nations didn't use the red-white-green color scheme.