England : Germanic invader vs native calculator

[JamesBond007]

So, I've been playing around with G25 a lot lately and I made a new calculator that I find has immense value for me personally but that may mean it has limited meaning to others and necessarily severely limited in some cases. I was inspired to make it by a post here that postulated that perhaps the Anglo-Saxons were the most evolved people on the planet etc...also, I was confused about how Germanic I was for the longest time because of it being equated with blonde hair and blue eyes but that is only fully applicable to Swedish people perhaps and less so to West Germanics in general and because modern stuff like AncestryDNA etc.. is trash. If you want the truth you have to go to fine grained ancient control. Now these categories are not hard and fast and have some small overlap of populations in some cases so the continental German samples would theoretically perhaps eat away small portions of the Saxon(s) portion of the English here. I did not include one viking sample which was too closely related to the Scottish /Irish to be useful here.

So basically I wanted to know if I as an American with an 'Irish' name am more Germanic than the English using middle age samples. So, if you want to know if you are more Germanic than the English you may find this calculator useful or fun too :

DEU_MA:AED_106,0.125205,0.133034,0.064865,0.067184,0.03416,0.020917,0.00517,0.008769,0.002863,-0.009476,-0.006171,0.002548,-0.012042,-0.006193,0.019544,0.008486,0.015255,-0.006968,-0.015964,0.005503,-0.003244,0.012736,-0.017378,0.005422,-0.000239
DEU_MA:AED_1135,0.110408,0.132019,0.036204,0.039729,0.022466,0.008925,0.011751,0.006461,-0.00409,0.001822,-0.007145,0.003297,-0.001487,-0.004129,-0.003257,-0.004906,-0.006258,0.006714,0.009553,0.010755,-0.000998,0.006677,0.013804,0.003735,0.003233
DEU_MA:AED_249,0.125205,0.126941,0.071653,0.04845,0.043085,0.023706,0.020211,0.001385,0.003477,-0.01057,-0.011854,-0.002398,-0.009663,0.003303,0.019679,-0.002784,-0.026598,-0.001774,0.004148,0.00988,0.01697,-0.006554,0.000123,0.007953,0.010658
DEU_MA:ALH_1,0.118376,0.129988,0.06939,0.051034,0.048009,0.023148,0.014101,-0.000692,0.006136,-0.001822,-0.002436,0.003447,-0.008474,-0.012248,0.012486,0.008088,-0.005215,0.004307,0.00817,0.009755,0.009858,0.004699,0.001725,0.002771,-0.002395
DEU_MA:ALH_10,0.12862,0.132019,0.065242,0.047481,0.045239,0.023985,0.006345,-0.002308,0.002863,0.004009,0.001461,0.003447,-0.011298,0.004679,0.019137,-0.002254,-0.02386,0.010135,0.005279,-0.009254,0.003868,0.012736,-0.003328,0.012291,-0.000239
DEU_MA:ALH_3,0.12862,0.112724,0.061848,0.038114,0.036007,0.018686,0.00094,-0.002308,-0.006749,-0.011116,-0.002436,-0.004046,-0.009812,-0.002202,0.017101,0.002652,-0.01695,0.006208,0,-5e-04,0.003993,0.001113,0.009983,0.015303,-0.010538
DEU_MA:NW_255,0.118376,0.140143,0.060716,0.049742,0.041546,0.006693,0.020681,0.015692,-0.004909,-0.000364,-0.004384,0.007793,-0.012339,-0.003441,0.026194,-0.006099,-0.025164,0.0019,0.014581,0.003252,0.004617,-0.003833,0.008874,0.023136,-0.001796
DEU_MA:STR_316,0.125205,0.12491,0.071653,0.057494,0.040315,0.03012,0.019976,-0.004154,0.000205,0,-0.010718,0.003297,-0.012487,-0.004129,0.028501,-0.008751,-0.019036,0.007095,0.006285,0.002876,-0.001373,0.00915,0.000493,0.01928,-0.00455
DEU_MA:STR_480,0.122929,0.135065,0.062979,0.033269,0.044931,0.02259,0.00188,0.017307,0.003068,0.008018,0.009256,0.000599,0.003271,-0.019405,0.015065,-0.000663,0.002608,0.007601,-0.001257,-0.000375,0.019091,-0.000866,-0.001849,0.010001,0.002515
DEU_MA:STR_486,0.120652,0.137096,0.04714,0.055233,0.042162,0.020638,0.008695,0.011999,0.010431,-0.005467,-0.002923,-0.006894,-0.017245,0.005367,0.007193,-0.002121,-0.028293,-0.002534,0.010559,0.008379,0.007237,0.001484,-0.01972,0.011568,-0.001078
DEU_MA_ACD:AED_1108,0.103579,0.010155,0.03017,-0.015827,-0.000923,-0.001952,-0.007285,0.007615,0.000614,0.005832,-0.007307,-0.009142,-0.004906,-0.003578,-0.006243,-0.005701,-0.005737,-0.003547,-0.014204,0.005002,-0.012728,-0.00779,-0.007395,-0.009158,-0.012454
DEU_MA_ACD:BIM_33,0.125205,0.141159,0.062225,0.037791,0.028005,0.021475,0.022091,-0.006,0.008181,0.007289,-0.006983,0.014387,0.001784,0.013762,0.000136,-0.003713,-0.014603,0.001014,0.016089,0.005127,0.012104,-0.003833,0.018241,-0.012411,-0.005748
DEU_MA_ACD:NW_54,0.129758,0.141159,0.024136,-0.000646,0.032929,-0.004183,0.009635,-0.005077,0.016771,0.015855,0.00747,0.002398,-0.011893,0.010872,-0.005836,-0.01127,-0.002999,0.003927,0.016215,-0.014757,-0.000624,0.011994,0.00912,0.002771,0.00467
DEU_MA_ACD:STR_220,0.121791,0.132019,0.051288,0.04199,0.037238,0.015618,0.013396,0.009461,-0.001636,-0.002916,-0.014128,-0.001499,-0.00996,0.002477,0.014386,-0.003845,-0.004563,-0.000127,0.001508,0.012006,0.003369,0.003957,0.002588,0.011568,-0.003952
DEU_MA_ACD:STR_228,0.121791,0.122879,0.038466,0.022933,0.023081,0.00753,-0.008695,0.011999,-0.00409,0.004556,0.012179,-0.008243,0.000297,0.003303,0.009365,0.008486,-0.003781,0.004941,0.006913,0.009004,-0.001872,-0.004575,0.013188,0.00012,-0.003113
DEU_MA_ACD:STR_310,0.111547,0.13405,0.02489,0.00323,0.011694,-0.006136,0.00611,0.006,-0.001432,0.012028,0.000812,0.007044,-0.011744,-0.008257,-0.008415,-0.00411,0.009909,-0.006588,-0.001508,0.006753,-0.000374,0.001855,0.000493,-0.003735,-0.00479
DEU_MA_ACD:STR_328,0.104717,0.066009,0.039221,0.011305,0.001846,0.018965,0.001175,0.001615,-0.01493,-0.005832,-0.001299,0.006444,0.000446,-0.003991,0.012893,0.001193,0.001825,-0.005828,0.005028,0.001126,0.002121,-0.009892,-0.008134,0.004217,-0.003592
DEU_MA_ACD:STR_355,0.124067,0.137096,0.064488,0.054264,0.048009,0.021753,0.001175,0.002077,0.002659,0.008018,-0.004547,0.012289,0.000446,-0.012248,0.022937,0.020949,0.007823,0.001774,0.000754,0.011506,0.001747,0.005812,0.006039,0.01205,0.004191
England_Roman:3DT16,0.126344,0.14319,0.065619,0.057171,0.038469,0.021196,0.00141,-0.001154,0.008385,0.009659,0.003248,0.002997,-0.012785,-0.009358,0.014115,0.001061,-0.007953,0.003041,0.002011,-0.006753,0.005865,0.005935,-0.001479,0.007953,-0.000479
England_Roman:6DT18,0.125205,0.142174,0.058454,0.050388,0.046162,0.021196,0.0047,0.008538,-0.000818,0.005103,0.000487,0.012589,-0.017393,-0.020368,0.023887,0.006762,-0.005346,-0.003041,0.012444,0.001,0.007986,0.000866,-0.00419,0.013857,-0.003353
England_Roman:6DT21,0.126344,0.12491,0.061471,0.047804,0.027697,0.013945,0.005405,0.009923,-0.00225,-0.000911,-0.019487,0.012589,-0.011447,-0.007707,0.019951,0.006099,-0.008345,-0.003927,0.002765,0.003752,0.002246,0.001237,0.003697,0.002289,-0.001317
England_Roman:6DT22,0.125205,0.140143,0.061094,0.045866,0.038776,0.014223,0.004935,0.005077,0.003068,0.000729,-0.004872,0.001349,-0.01115,-0.016928,0.016015,0.000796,0.000652,0.003927,0.006159,0,0.003993,0.005441,-0.011462,-0.00012,-0.000359
England_Roman:6DT23,0.126344,0.141159,0.060339,0.046512,0.036622,0.009482,0.005405,0.008077,0.00225,0.001458,-0.008607,0.006744,-0.016055,-0.007019,0.030944,-0.003845,-0.018906,0.004181,-0.003268,0.012506,0.004492,-0.004081,-0.010476,0.008917,-0.001916
England_Roman:6DT3,0.132035,0.13405,0.058077,0.050711,0.033237,0.029005,0.008225,0.003461,0.001023,-0.004556,-0.005034,0.005245,-0.017096,-0.005918,0.028908,-0.011403,-0.023469,0.001774,0.003142,0.006378,0.010731,0.000124,-0.002588,0.011086,0.002874
England_Saxon:I0157,0.129758,0.140143,0.065996,0.059109,0.037853,0.019801,0.00752,0.007615,0.006749,-0.00656,-0.006496,0.008992,-0.009217,-0.01156,0.028908,0.007955,-0.006258,0.000253,0.008045,0.009755,0.003619,-0.003215,-0.005176,0.025666,-0.002874
England_Saxon:I0159,0.130897,0.135065,0.062979,0.053618,0.038161,0.023148,0.00329,0.006461,0.001023,-0.000729,-0.001299,0.006894,-0.014569,-0.010322,0.028366,0.010342,-0.007432,0.000507,0.004525,0.008254,0.001373,0.007296,-0.005916,0.012773,0.003592
England_Saxon:I0161,0.12862,0.13405,0.061848,0.048127,0.04647,0.020638,0.004465,0.005077,0.006749,0.004738,-0.002436,0.004946,-0.006987,-0.012799,0.024158,0.006895,0.004563,0.0019,0.003645,0.005503,0.002246,-0.00272,0.006779,0.016267,0.003233
England_Saxon:I0769,0.129758,0.132019,0.070899,0.059432,0.044624,0.025937,0.00282,0.005538,0,-0.006743,-0.006171,0.004796,-0.012785,-0.012386,0.028366,0.0179,0.00691,-0.003674,0.006159,0.008004,0.008235,0.005193,0.00037,0.019521,0.002036
England_Saxon:I0773,0.141141,0.126941,0.063356,0.071383,0.044008,0.024263,0.00799,0.011307,0.00409,-0.00656,-0.005359,0.005395,-0.01219,-0.013074,0.021172,0.011668,-0.001434,0.000887,0.008673,0.008629,0.010981,0.003957,-0.003081,0.015544,-0.007424
England_Saxon:I0774,0.134311,0.13405,0.054305,0.051034,0.038161,0.014223,0.013161,0.007615,0.001227,0.003462,-0.004709,0.002548,-0.00446,-0.008257,0.018051,0.009016,-0.01004,0.005448,0.005908,0,0.002246,0.000371,0.000863,0.016267,-0.00467
England_Saxon:I0777,0.135449,0.136081,0.063356,0.050388,0.040315,0.019522,0.006345,0.009461,0.01084,0.000182,-0.005196,0.001349,-0.003271,-0.020781,0.017101,0.020551,0.00326,0.002154,0.004777,0.008129,0.003993,0.00643,-0.00949,0.011929,-0.002754
England_Saxon:NO3423,0.129758,0.13405,0.068259,0.062339,0.0397,0.017012,0.004465,0.002077,0.001227,-0.007107,-0.007795,0.001499,-0.010852,-0.010459,0.027823,0.005569,-0.014212,0.004561,-0.000126,0.005002,0.009982,0.002473,0.002465,0.015183,0.001916
SWE_Viking_Age_Sigtuna:vik_84001,0.133173,0.125926,0.076933,0.061047,0.041238,0.021196,0.002585,0.006461,0.000205,-0.012028,-0.000974,0.004046,-0.000297,-0.006331,0.018051,0.013259,0.009648,0.001647,-0.000754,0.00075,0.002371,0.000371,0.005176,0.012893,0.001437
SWE_Viking_Age_Sigtuna:vik_84005,0.127482,0.120848,0.072784,0.070414,0.042777,0.031794,0.00611,0.014307,0.009817,-0.022051,-0.001461,-0.001349,0.00892,0.012386,0.012893,-0.007558,-0.01708,0.002027,0.00176,0.001626,0.001497,0.00507,0.006902,-0.000241,0.00467
SWE_Viking_Age_Sigtuna:vik_97002,0.129758,0.140143,0.05242,0.04845,0.045855,0.014781,0.00141,0.002077,-0.006954,-0.014943,-0.013641,0.001349,-0.012933,-0.001514,0.001629,0.009016,0.000782,0.001267,0.000377,-0.006878,-0.00262,-0.006306,-0.002218,0.010001,0.000838
SWE_Viking_Age_Sigtuna:vik_grt036,0.132035,0.133034,0.065996,0.056202,0.0437,0.02008,0.004935,0.011999,0.006954,-0.012757,-0.003248,-0.002248,0.00223,-0.001789,0.002172,0.001591,-0.001956,0.001774,0.006159,0.005878,-0.007237,0.005935,0.003574,0.002048,0.003233
SWE_Viking_Age_Sigtuna:vik_gtm021,0.121791,0.118817,0.081081,0.067184,0.045239,0.023427,0.00752,0.012692,-0.005113,-0.014214,0.000487,0.002398,0.007433,0.001239,0.015608,0.00305,-0.011474,0.001267,-0.002765,0.003502,0.01123,0.004822,0.00037,0.008796,-0.002275
SWE_Viking_Age_Sigtuna:vik_KAL006,0.133173,0.094444,0.085229,0.092701,0.038776,0.032909,0.017861,0.015922,0.004909,-0.038087,-0.001137,-0.012439,0.018137,0.016652,-0.002714,0.005701,0.001173,0.003167,0.005656,0.006378,0.007112,-0.004575,0.011216,-0.001084,0.001437
SWE_Viking_Age_Sigtuna:vik_kls001,0.125205,0.120848,0.075047,0.058786,0.040623,0.026774,0.00658,0.019153,0.00859,0.000911,-0.007145,-0.000899,-0.016501,-0.007432,0.022258,0.0118,-0.003651,-0.011275,0.013827,0.010255,0.012478,0.021268,-0.017131,0.012532,0.008502
SWE_Viking_Age_Sigtuna:vik_nuf002,0.122929,0.138112,0.061848,0.047158,0.044316,0.012829,0.0094,-0.002538,0.007976,-0.008565,0.007632,0.016785,-0.006095,0.006331,0.024701,-0.004773,-0.022035,0.014062,0.008045,0.008129,0.006114,0.006183,-0.009367,0.002771,-0.010658
SWE_Viking_Age_Sigtuna:vik_stg020,0.126344,0.116786,0.086361,0.0969,0.02462,0.021753,0.00423,0.013153,0.001023,-0.030798,0.007795,0.002698,0.009217,0.006331,-0.000271,0.023999,0.001825,-0.009375,0.004777,0.006628,0.000749,-0.003215,0.012078,0.002169,-0.007784
SWE_Viking_Age_Sigtuna:vik_stg021,0.125205,0.122879,0.065242,0.053295,0.041854,0.027889,0.00564,0.003461,0.005113,-0.002551,-0.007145,0.005695,-0.007582,-0.009771,0.012758,-0.008884,-0.017993,0.001394,0.007039,0.006253,-0.001996,0.005812,-0.002218,0.004097,0.001796
SWE_Viking_Age_Sigtuna:vik_stg026,0.125205,0.128972,0.077687,0.070737,0.04647,0.024542,0.00987,0.009461,-0.000818,-0.010752,0.003897,0.004346,-0.002676,0.005092,0.004072,0.010872,0.001825,0.005068,0.004777,0.004627,0.006738,0.000618,-0.000986,0.010483,0.000599
SWE_Viking_Age_Sigtuna:vik_urm035,0.117238,0.126941,0.079195,0.070091,0.039084,0.032072,0.00047,0.015692,0.011044,-0.021504,-0.003248,-0.001499,0.013825,0.007432,0.016151,0.016043,0.01017,0.005448,0.003142,0.009505,0.005615,0.007419,0.002588,0.016026,-0.002515
SWE_Viking_Age_Sigtuna:vik_urm160,0.125205,0.121864,0.076933,0.068153,0.041238,0.02761,0.008225,0.016615,-0.000818,-0.017312,0.003897,-0.004646,0.002973,0.009634,0.0076,0.006629,0.012256,-0.00038,0.000503,-0.004377,0.007861,0.000371,0.003697,0.010845,0.003113

My results :

Target: Kevin_scaled
Distance: 1.8777% / 0.01877705
69.6 England_Saxon
15.6 DEU_MA_ACD
12.2 England_Roman
2.6 DEU_MA


The results of the English:

Target: English
Distance: 0.6508% / 0.00650785
42.4 England_Roman
32.6 England_Saxon
18.6 DEU_MA
6.4 DEU_MA_ACD


^ in the case of the English sample being modeled here although the distance is slightly closer than mine I am overall obviously more Germanic but it also one can see the German samples are eating slightly away at the Saxon sample(s) which should probably be around 38 instead of 32.6 but overall this is a pretty good model of Germanic vs native Brit ancestry I feel.

[Creoda]

Pointless, most of the England Saxon samples are mixed with Celtic Britons, the DEU_MA samples are also mixed with non-Germanics, and the Sigtuna samples are mixed with other irrelevant peoples. England Roman also has one or two Germanic outliers.

You aren't more Germanic than the English, you are 1/2 Irish, 1/4 Alsatian and 1/4 British (mostly Scottish), you are probably less than 25% Germanic.

[Folcwalding]

Nice calculator JamesBond, it's worth to develop it further.

Creoda has some points though.

I want to make some more adds:
- I guess that the Bronze Age population on both sides of the Norh Sea show much similarities, both are 'muted' Bell Beaker. As known Bell Beakers came from the North Dutch/ NW Germanic area, exactly as the later on Anglo-Saxons, on both sides of the North Sea there is a LNBA population that shows much similarities in genetic sense! Of course IBD, so certain other developments, but they come close.

- Not only England but also North Dutch has an Anglo-Saxon influx. Especially the most western parts of North Dutch, nowadays called Friesland, were practically depopulated in the third/ fourth century. The more eastern parts (now called Groningen/Drenthe) were much less (Groningen) or may be not at all depopulated (Drenthe).

- Hold on to the different spheres:

I. on the east side we see during the Roman period that the Chauci/Saxons came already in. According to archeologist Nieuwhof this occurred:
a. eastern (Saxon network), western (Frisian/North Holland network) around first century AD.
b. the influx of the expanding Chauci

picture this:



II.on the most west side we see two streams (according to archeologist Nicolay):
a. the Anglo-Saxons came in during the first part of the fifth century
b. the Jutes and Norwegians came in during the second part of the fifth century

Picture this:


ad b. the legendary Finn Folcwalding has in Beowulf a Jutish entourage, that is according to the second stream in Friesland, he was may be not a king but more a chieftain with a seat in Wijnaldum (most western part Friesland). A strategic place in the North Sea!

My father has a Groningen (touch Friesland) ancestry my mother a Drenthe ancestry. My father is mostly affected by the Anglo-Saxon stream, my mother has also a high LNBA Bronze age so before migration time amount. I guess the Roman Age Brittonic represents the LNBA overlap the best! (Mom higher than Dad).

Picture it:

[Folcwalding]

Double......

[Grace O'Malley]

It's interesting looking at this I don't know if it will ever be possible because like Folcwalding said above these populations all have input from these Beakers.

Here is my result using the calculator above.

Target: Grace_scaled
Distance: 1.3457% / 0.01345730
49.4 England_Saxon
41.0 England_Roman
6.6 DEU_MA
3.0 SWE_Viking_Age_Sigtuna

[Folcwalding]

This is Bell Beaker heartland, they also took to the boat to the Isles:

[celticdragongod]

Distance to: CDG_scaled
0.02505466 England_Saxon:I0774
0.02521146 England_Saxon:I0159
0.02677443 England_Saxon:I0161
0.02833758 England_Saxon:I0157
0.02836776 England_Saxon:NO3423
0.02997703 England_Roman:6DT3
0.03028696 SWE_Viking_Age_Sigtuna:vik_stg021
0.03087437 England_Roman:6DT18
0.03199269 England_Roman:3DT16
0.03249859 England_Roman:6DT21
0.03270508 England_Roman:6DT23
0.03439465 DEU_MA_ACD:STR_220
0.03615060 England_Roman:6DT22
0.03631814 DEU_MA:ALH_1
0.03633162 DEU_MA:NW_255
0.03637884 DEU_MA:ALH_10
0.03770922 England_Saxon:I0773
0.03778829 DEU_MA:STR_316
0.03827150 England_Saxon:I0777
0.03855419 England_Saxon:I0769
0.03911270 SWE_Viking_Age_Sigtuna:vik_grt036
0.04018333 DEU_MA:ALH_3
0.04212053 DEU_MA_ACD:STR_355
0.04252669 SWE_Viking_Age_Sigtuna:vik_84001
0.04364449 DEU_MA:AED_249

Target: CDG_scaled
Distance: 2.0710% / 0.02071029 | ADC: 2x
100.0 England_Saxon

Target: CDG_scaled
Distance: 1.7208% / 0.01720791 | ADC: 1x
77.0 England_Saxon
17.0 England_Roman
6.0 SWE_Viking_Age_Sigtuna

Target: CDG_scaled
Distance: 1.5480% / 0.01548011 | ADC: 0.5x
58.6 England_Saxon
18.2 England_Roman
12.8 SWE_Viking_Age_Sigtuna
10.4 DEU_MA

Target: CDG_scaled
Distance: 1.4710% / 0.01471044 | ADC: 0.25x
44.6 England_Saxon
23.0 England_Roman
16.8 DEU_MA
13.2 SWE_Viking_Age_Sigtuna
2.4 DEU_MA_ACD

Target: CDG_scaled
Distance: 1.4511% / 0.01451146
42.2 England_Saxon
21.4 England_Roman
17.0 DEU_MA
13.0 SWE_Viking_Age_Sigtuna
6.4 DEU_MA_ACD

[Impaler]

Target:Impaler
Distance: 3.2626% / 0.03262575
85.8 DEU_MA_ACD
14.2 DEU_MA

[Mr.G]

My mama, mostly German ancestry but she always scores notable English:

Target: Mr.G_mom_scaled
Distance: 1.3064% / 0.01306373 | ADC: 0.25x
38.4 England_Roman
32.4 England_Saxon
23.0 DEU_MA_ACD
6.2 DEU_MA

[Tooting Carmen]

I thought it was long proven that English people have more Paleolithic than Germanic admixture (the former misguidedly called 'Celtic'), and are much closer to other British Islanders than to Dutch and Germans?