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Thread: England : Germanic invader vs native calculator

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tooting Carmen View Post
    I thought it was long proven that English people have more Paleolithic than Germanic admixture (the former misguidedly called 'Celtic'), and are much closer to other British Islanders than to Dutch and Germans?
    That sounds like one of those very misleading studies done in the early 2000's just using mtdna where they don't have the knowledge that they do now. All northwest Europeans are close in genetics because of Bronze Age similarity so not only English but also Irish and Welsh are close to Dutch.
    Last edited by Grace O'Malley; 08-09-2020 at 03:16 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tooting Carmen View Post
    I thought it was long proven that English people have more Paleolithic than Germanic admixture (the former misguidedly called 'Celtic'), and are much closer to other British Islanders than to Dutch and Germans?
    I've heard you use the term Paleolithic to describe pre-Germanic Britons before, I thought you were out of your mind. If you'd looked at any PCA made in the last 10 years you'd know that these groups genetically overlap heavily.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Creoda View Post
    I've heard you use the term Paleolithic to describe pre-Germanic Britons before, I thought you were out of your mind. If you'd looked at any PCA made in the last 10 years you'd know that these groups genetically overlap heavily.
    Paleolithic for Britons....must be a paleo study then

    Wasn't it Olalde (2018) that stated that the Bell Beakers replaced 90% of the Isles genes?

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    What is it with those bloody Saxons? lol

    In an ideal world English people would match them highly and the Irish would not.

    Genetics eh.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Folcwalding View Post
    Paleolithic for Britons....must be a paleo study then

    Wasn't it Olalde (2018) that stated that the Bell Beakers replaced 90% of the Isles genes?
    Right, those crazy conclusions from the 00s were that British were circa 80-90% descended from Mesolithic Iberian migrants from 10k years ago. In the uninterested Chinese Whispers version it becomes Paleolithic Cro-Magnons
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    My "Saxon" mom

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    Distance: 1.5817% / 0.01581742
    63.2 England_Saxon
    19.0 SWE_Viking_Age_Sigtuna
    9.6 DEU_MA_ACD
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    Quote Originally Posted by Creoda View Post
    Right, those crazy conclusions from the 00s were that British were circa 80-90% descended from Mesolithic Iberian migrants from 10k years ago. In the uninterested Chinese Whispers version it becomes Paleolithic Cro-Magnons
    Can remember when we thought Basques were basically brothers to the western parts of British Isles. the Good old R1b days.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Graham View Post
    What is it with those bloody Saxons? lol

    In an ideal world English people would match them highly and the Irish would not.

    Genetics eh.
    In the more fine-scale studies (what's necessary for these populations) like the recent Irish paper, the Insular vs Germanic drift has been made more apparent.




    The second component of variation (Fig. 4.6B-C) is unique in that it explains a large amount of variation present in both ancient and modern individuals. This corresponds to the primary split seen in fineSTRUCTURE analysis by Byrne et al. (submitted), which segregates Ireland and Britain into two distinct genetic islands, capturing what is defined as an Anglo-Celtic cline. Western Ireland and southeastern Britain form the two extremes of this component, with the Scottish population bridging the gap between the two clusters. Strikingly, ancient samples also separate out along this axis, with Irish individuals from both the Early Bronze Age and Iron Age periods falling further towards modern Irish variation than their British and continental counterparts (Fig. 4.6B-C).
    Irish Iron Age samples extend the entire range of Irish variation on PC2, suggesting substantial continuity with the modern population. Irish Early Bronze Age samples show a more constricted distribution closer to the center of the plot, but still exhibit a systemic shift towards Irish Iron Age and modern populations, particularly those from individualised burials. The most parsimonious explanation for such observations is direct continuity between the Chalcolithic/Early Bronze Age and modern period in Ireland, with much of the haplotypic variation explained by PC2 forming in the intervening millennia, in a similar manner as suggested for Wales in PC3. While migration may be partially responsible for this structure, it is worth noting that the Irish Iron Age and modern population typically extends away, rather than towards, any potential external sources of variation in the dataset, including a contemporary Iron Age population from Britain, the most likely source of migration into Ireland between the Bronze Age and Early Christian periods. However, several exceptional Irish Iron Age samples exist, returned to in later sections.

    The homogenisation of British population structure through admixture

    In contrast to the gentle gradient of ancient Irish variation, British and continental individuals show a more punctuated distribution along PC2 (Fig. 4.6B-C), forming two clear clusters at both ends of modern British variation. Anglo-Saxons fall with southeastern English variation in this and all other PCs considered, alongside a Nordic Iron Age sample, reflecting the large genetic contribution of Germanic migrations to this part of the island (Leslie et al. 2015; Schiffels et al. 2016). Iron Age Britons comprise another tight grouping at the opposite end of British variation, emphasising the admixed nature of the modern population (Leslie et al. 2015; Martiniano et al. 2016; Schiffels et al. 2016). Early snapshots of continental introgression events may be represented by two samples that fall midway between the two groups, one from an Anglo-Saxon context (O3), which was reported as admixed in the original study (Schiffels et al. 2016), and the second from a Roman British population (6DT23), another member of which was demonstrated to be of likely Middle Eastern origin (Martiniano et al. 2016). Notably, no Irish Iron Age samples are seen to fall into this region of the PC space.
    The compression of Iron Age British haplotypic variation close to the zero coordinate, relative to that of Ireland, suggests that PC2 may not effectively explain the majority of diversity present within this group, possibly due to their lack of representation within the larger admixed modern British cohort. In this respect, PC2 is perhaps best considered as explaining the distribution of Irish-related haplotypic variation in both modern and ancient individuals, which acts as somewhat of an imperfect proxy for Celtic ancestry in the neighbouring island of Britain, counterbalancing the Anglo-Saxon input. We caution that such a phenomenon may cause similar placement of individuals for unrelated demographic reasons. For example, the placement of Northern Irish and Scottish individuals between the two islands is proposed to be the result of numerous migrations in both directions, including the Gaelicisation of Scotland circa 600 AD and the later Ulster plantations (Byrne et al. submitted). It is notable that no PC segregates Scotland from the rest of the dataset, suggesting the modern population has been mainly borne from admixture, rather than isolation, the reverse of what is proposed for Wales. Indeed, the more muted and systematic shift towards Irish variation of Welsh populations, whose diversity is better captured in PC3 and PC6, may represent more ancient shared Celtic ancestry between the groups. The tight clustering of three German Late Neolithic and Bronze Age individuals at the edge of ancient Irish variation, alongside the Iron Age British population, could also be due to a similar effect of older shared ancestry. Such an interpretation may find some temporal grounding in the differential placement of a Nordic Late Neolithic individual further towards the Germanic extreme of the plot.
    Last edited by Creoda; 08-09-2020 at 07:58 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Creoda View Post
    Right, those crazy conclusions from the 00s were that British were circa 80-90% descended from Mesolithic Iberian migrants from 10k years ago. In the uninterested Chinese Whispers version it becomes Paleolithic Cro-Magnons
    Well, at least that implied the white British are indigenous to the isles.
    Happy Indigenous Peoples' Day!

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    Target: MotherKyp
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