Natives are genetically much more divergent from Asiatics than even Indians are to Europeans?

[Token]

I guess indians being closer to northwest euros than natives are to east asians came off as a big shocker.. Especially given that natives still share mongoloid features to a large degree with east asians.

Indians share a lot more recent ancestry with Northwestern Europeans than Amerindians share with East Asians. Indians were never a static entity living isolated from the rest of the world, there has been continuous geneflow from all directions since ever.

[Thambi]

Are you flabbergasted yourself seeing the distance?

kind of, but again the more I think of it not really. Natives have diverged quite early from east asians. even siberians are far from modern east asians on these charts. south indians are closer to tajiks and uyghurs than yakuts are to koreans according to these distances atleast. The ANE is a very differentiating component im assuming despite the pheno similarities.

Distance to: Yakut
0.26195371 Korean
0.26370013 Han_Shanxi
0.26410502 Japanese
0.27125031 Han_Henan
0.27331411 Han_Shandong
0.28462081 Han_Shanghai
0.28570350 Han_Jiangsu
0.29150999 Han_Zhejiang
0.29158384 Han_Hubei
0.29329037 Han_Sichuan
0.30132979 Han_Chongqing
0.30405598 Han_Fujian
0.31409786 Han_Guangdong


Indians are closer to euros than they are to aborigines for example but phenotype wise i've seen more indians that look like the latter group.

[Chris596]

I wonder if it has to do with the fact that Amerindians are very genetically divergent from Asiatics/East Asians after being isolated in the American continents for 15000-20000 years? Also maybe you have recent East Asian ancestry thus closer distance, while the Asiatic ancestry of those Natives are very ancient?

Here are some Natives for comparison: not that much difference in distance to you and East Asians methinks:

...

Can you try run some Native populations into your distance such as Pima, Surui, Nahua, Huichol, Amerindian_North, Zapotec, USA_Kennewick, Quechua?

Well, this could be the explanation to it. My father is Szekely Hungarian and most Szekelys consider themselves the descendant of the Huns (could be Xiongnu for instance). But it also happens that I get modeled as 80/90% European + 10/20% Tatar or something.

Okay, I ran myself and my dad with some of these samples. As you can see most Amerindians are far from us, I think it's because we don't share ancestry with them. I think I've read somewhere that North Amerindians are the most similar to East Asians (more recent migration?)

Distance to: Chris_scaled
0.58611650 Amerindian_North
0.61783246 Quechua
0.63435818 Zapotec
0.63897731 Nahua
0.64745619 Pima
0.64820294 Huichol
0.71449200 Surui

Distance to: ChrisFather
0.58844972 Amerindian_North
0.62094158 Quechua
0.63737592 Zapotec
0.64182914 Nahua
0.65015513 Pima
0.65150394 Huichol
0.71737293 Surui


And here are some of our mixed mode oracles if you're interested in these as well:

Me

  [1,] "89.4% Montenegrin + 10.6% Tatar_Mishar"              "0.0204"
  [2,] "59.5% Gagauz + 40.5% Slovakian"                      "0.0205"
  [3,] "92.9% Montenegrin + 7.1% Tatar_Lipka"                "0.0206"
  [4,] "48.2% Cossack_Ukrainian + 51.8% Greek"               "0.0207"
  [5,] "56.7% Greek + 43.3% Russian_Tver"                    "0.0207"
  [6,] "75.5% Bulgarian + 24.5% Russian_Tver"                "0.0208"
  [7,] "91.8% Montenegrin + 8.2% Tatar_Kazan"                "0.0208"
  [8,] "33.9% Cossack_Ukrainian + 66.1% Gagauz"              "0.0209"
  [9,] "54% Albanian + 46% Cossack_Ukrainian"                "0.0209"
 [10,] "20% Ingrian + 80% Macedonian"                        "0.0209"
 [11,] "3.1% Ket + 96.9% Montenegrin"                        "0.021" 
 [12,] "58.8% Albanian + 41.2% Russian_Tver"                 "0.021" 
 [13,] "2.1% Igorot + 97.9% Montenegrin"                     "0.021" 
 [14,] "98.1% Montenegrin + 1.9% Tujia"                      "0.021" 
 [15,] "1.9% Atayal + 98.1% Montenegrin"                     "0.021" 
 [16,] "1.9% Miao + 98.1% Montenegrin"                       "0.021" 
 [17,] "1.9% Kinh_Vietnam + 98.1% Montenegrin"               "0.021" 
 [18,] "1.9% Han + 98.1% Montenegrin"                        "0.021" 
 [19,] "2.2% Dungan + 97.8% Montenegrin"                     "0.021" 
 [20,] "71.9% Bulgarian + 28.1% Cossack_Ukrainian"           "0.021"

My Father

  [1,] "96.2% Macedonian + 3.8% Tujia"           "0.0411"
  [2,] "96.2% Macedonian + 3.8% Miao"            "0.0411"
  [3,] "3.8% Dai + 96.2% Macedonian"             "0.0411"
  [4,] "3.9% Kinh_Vietnam + 96.1% Macedonian"    "0.0411"
  [5,] "3.7% Igorot + 96.3% Macedonian"          "0.0411"
  [6,] "3.8% Han + 96.2% Macedonian"             "0.0411"
  [7,] "96.2% Macedonian + 3.8% She"             "0.0412"
  [8,] "3.7% Atayal + 96.3% Macedonian"          "0.0412"
  [9,] "3.8% Lahu + 96.2% Macedonian"            "0.0412"
 [10,] "3.7% Ami + 96.3% Macedonian"             "0.0413"
 [11,] "3.7% Luzon + 96.3% Macedonian"           "0.0413"
 [12,] "96.3% Macedonian + 3.7% Murut"           "0.0413"
 [13,] "4.3% Dungan + 95.7% Macedonian"          "0.0413"
 [14,] "3.7% Korean + 96.3% Macedonian"          "0.0414"
 [15,] "3.8% Htin_Mal + 96.2% Macedonian"        "0.0414"
 [16,] "3.8% Han_NChina + 96.2% Macedonian"      "0.0414"
 [17,] "96.2% Macedonian + 3.8% Naxi"            "0.0414"
 [18,] "3.7% Dusun + 96.3% Macedonian"           "0.0415"
 [19,] "4% Cambodian + 96% Macedonian"           "0.0415"
 [20,] "96.2% Macedonian + 3.8% Yi"              "0.0415"
 [21,] "97.5% Gagauz + 2.5% Igorot"              "0.0415"
 [22,] "3.7% Japanese + 96.3% Macedonian"        "0.0416"
 [23,] "3.8% Hawaiian + 96.2% Macedonian"        "0.0416"
 [24,] "95.9% Macedonian + 4.1% Thai"            "0.0416"
 [25,] "96% Macedonian + 4% Tu"                  "0.0416"

[Leto]

Irish travellers lived in isolation for just a few hundred years, and they are already easily distinguishable from the main Irish cluster.

Are they not fully Northwestern European? Would they score something else or in different proportions? I thought they were just white like the rest of the Irish, just a cultural subgroup a bit like German Mennonites (only not faith-based).

[Ion Basescul]

This is insane...I didn't expect 20,000-30,000 years of separation of Natives from Asiatics can cause much genetic divergence... (PYF_150 and Botocudo are Polynesians btw). Also Botai is an ancient group called Western Siberian Hunter Gatherers from Kazakhstan.

Did you live under a rock for the past 10 years in genetics? Indians descend from Ancient Europeans, Ancient West Asians that lived around Iran and local South Indian Hunter Gatherers. It is only natural that they will be kind of close to other West Eurasians.

[Alenka]

I think I'v read somewhere that North Amerindians are the most similar to East Asians (more recent migration?)

The most recent migration are the Eskimos, followed by North Amerindians.

[Token]

Are they not fully Northwestern European? Would they score something else or in different proportions? I thought they were just white like the rest of the Irish, just a cultural subgroup a bit like German Mennonites (only not faith-based).

They are fully Northwestern Europeans, but they still behave weirdly in a PCA.



It is the same idea for Amerindians, but with the weirdness multiplied by 1000.

Something similar happens to Slavs. They are extremely similar to Northwest Europeans in terms of ancestry components, but they are still easily distinguishable in a PCA due to recent drift (what is popularly known as Balto-Slavic drift)

[Maguzanci]

Did you live under a rock for the past 10 years in genetics? Indians descend from Ancient Europeans, Ancient West Asians that lived around Iran and local South Indian Hunter Gatherers. It is only natural that they will be kind of close to other West Eurasians.

No need to insult.

Of couse i know that. But Indians are not considered as West Eurasian group. They are only 45-55% West Eurasian on average similar to Horn Africans like Ethiopians, Somalians. The remaining of their genes is AASI (and somtimes East Asian admix in the cases of Bengalis and some groups that live close to SE Asia or Himalayas like Nepalis) which i thought would make them very distant and diverged from West Eurasians.

If you think Indians are West Eurasian pop, then you must see Horn Africans as West Eurasian group and not a mixed intermediate population.

[Zoro]

Are you being ironic? Irish travellers lived in isolation for just a few hundred years, and they are already easily distinguishable from the main Irish cluster. Native Americans set foot in the Americas just at the end of the Last Glacial Maximum and have been endogamous since then, what were you expecting?

Exactly why it's not wise to rely on PCAs or G25 to infer relatedness.

[Maguzanci]

Well, this could be the explanation to it. My father is Szekely Hungarian and most Szekelys consider themselves the descendant of the Huns (could be Xiongnu for instance). But it also happens that I get modeled as 80/90% European + 10/20% Tatar or something.

Okay, I ran myself and my dad with some of these samples. As you can see most Amerindians are far from us, I think it's because we don't share ancestry with them. I think I've read somewhere that North Amerindians are the most similar to East Asians (more recent migration?)

Distance to: Chris_scaled
0.58611650 Amerindian_North
0.61783246 Quechua
0.63435818 Zapotec
0.63897731 Nahua
0.64745619 Pima
0.64820294 Huichol
0.71449200 Surui

Distance to: ChrisFather
0.58844972 Amerindian_North
0.62094158 Quechua
0.63737592 Zapotec
0.64182914 Nahua
0.65015513 Pima
0.65150394 Huichol
0.71737293 Surui


And here are some of our mixed mode oracles if you're interested in these as well:

Me

  [1,] "89.4% Montenegrin + 10.6% Tatar_Mishar"              "0.0204"
  [2,] "59.5% Gagauz + 40.5% Slovakian"                      "0.0205"
  [3,] "92.9% Montenegrin + 7.1% Tatar_Lipka"                "0.0206"
  [4,] "48.2% Cossack_Ukrainian + 51.8% Greek"               "0.0207"
  [5,] "56.7% Greek + 43.3% Russian_Tver"                    "0.0207"
  [6,] "75.5% Bulgarian + 24.5% Russian_Tver"                "0.0208"
  [7,] "91.8% Montenegrin + 8.2% Tatar_Kazan"                "0.0208"
  [8,] "33.9% Cossack_Ukrainian + 66.1% Gagauz"              "0.0209"
  [9,] "54% Albanian + 46% Cossack_Ukrainian"                "0.0209"
 [10,] "20% Ingrian + 80% Macedonian"                        "0.0209"
 [11,] "3.1% Ket + 96.9% Montenegrin"                        "0.021" 
 [12,] "58.8% Albanian + 41.2% Russian_Tver"                 "0.021" 
 [13,] "2.1% Igorot + 97.9% Montenegrin"                     "0.021" 
 [14,] "98.1% Montenegrin + 1.9% Tujia"                      "0.021" 
 [15,] "1.9% Atayal + 98.1% Montenegrin"                     "0.021" 
 [16,] "1.9% Miao + 98.1% Montenegrin"                       "0.021" 
 [17,] "1.9% Kinh_Vietnam + 98.1% Montenegrin"               "0.021" 
 [18,] "1.9% Han + 98.1% Montenegrin"                        "0.021" 
 [19,] "2.2% Dungan + 97.8% Montenegrin"                     "0.021" 
 [20,] "71.9% Bulgarian + 28.1% Cossack_Ukrainian"           "0.021"

My Father

  [1,] "96.2% Macedonian + 3.8% Tujia"           "0.0411"
  [2,] "96.2% Macedonian + 3.8% Miao"            "0.0411"
  [3,] "3.8% Dai + 96.2% Macedonian"             "0.0411"
  [4,] "3.9% Kinh_Vietnam + 96.1% Macedonian"    "0.0411"
  [5,] "3.7% Igorot + 96.3% Macedonian"          "0.0411"
  [6,] "3.8% Han + 96.2% Macedonian"             "0.0411"
  [7,] "96.2% Macedonian + 3.8% She"             "0.0412"
  [8,] "3.7% Atayal + 96.3% Macedonian"          "0.0412"
  [9,] "3.8% Lahu + 96.2% Macedonian"            "0.0412"
 [10,] "3.7% Ami + 96.3% Macedonian"             "0.0413"
 [11,] "3.7% Luzon + 96.3% Macedonian"           "0.0413"
 [12,] "96.3% Macedonian + 3.7% Murut"           "0.0413"
 [13,] "4.3% Dungan + 95.7% Macedonian"          "0.0413"
 [14,] "3.7% Korean + 96.3% Macedonian"          "0.0414"
 [15,] "3.8% Htin_Mal + 96.2% Macedonian"        "0.0414"
 [16,] "3.8% Han_NChina + 96.2% Macedonian"      "0.0414"
 [17,] "96.2% Macedonian + 3.8% Naxi"            "0.0414"
 [18,] "3.7% Dusun + 96.3% Macedonian"           "0.0415"
 [19,] "4% Cambodian + 96% Macedonian"           "0.0415"
 [20,] "96.2% Macedonian + 3.8% Yi"              "0.0415"
 [21,] "97.5% Gagauz + 2.5% Igorot"              "0.0415"
 [22,] "3.7% Japanese + 96.3% Macedonian"        "0.0416"
 [23,] "3.8% Hawaiian + 96.2% Macedonian"        "0.0416"
 [24,] "95.9% Macedonian + 4.1% Thai"            "0.0416"
 [25,] "96% Macedonian + 4% Tu"                  "0.0416"

What's the highest amount of Mongoloid ancestry you have seen for a Hungarian? Are Szekelys more East Asian-shifted than most Hungarians?

Yep, Natives seem to be more distant genetically from you and your dad than East Asians. I think your East Eurasian admix might be distinct than the ones ancestral to Amerindians, that could also be why they are genetically distant from you. Although, Ket, Selkup, Chukchi, Koryak are one of the closest groups to Native Americans genetically. Can you try to run them along with other Siberians like Yakut, Oroqen or include them along with the general East Asian groups in you and your dad distance runs?

Actually Inuits/Eskimos are even more similar to East Asians than Northern Natives are. But they are not considered American Indians because they are pretty recent migrants from Siberians compared to Natives. So yes, Northern Amerindians are the most East Asian-shifted/similar to East Asians among Native Americans.

You seem to be around 2% Mongoloid while your dad seems approx 4% East Asian? Are you and your dad more East Eurasian-shifted than most Hungarians?

Also it's interesting that the East Asian ancestry of you and your dad is Southern Chinese/SE Asian-related rather than Tungusic/Mongolic/Turkic which would be the Mongoloid ancestors of the Huns.