Lost in translation. Americans vs the rest of us

[SwordoftheVistula]

America was built almost exclusively on British (or WASP) values and doctrines, was it not? In fact I think it was America that was used as experimental territory for a lot of capitalist endeavours.

Sure was. Just pointing out that every other white & Asian former colony of Britain is today more capitalist than the US or UK.

France, the French Revolution, wasn't it a big influence for American Revolution as well? The constitution of human rights, equality, etc

Not really. American Revolution was an oblique influence on the French Revolution in terms of showing that a monarchy was not needed for a country. The French monarchy was headed for a downfall at any rate, being at or near the top of corrupt, degenerate, and incompetent monarchies.

The US Constitution is mainly about limiting the federal government from interfering in the activities of the individual and local governments. Mainly personal property rights and protections from any sort of government influence on the rights of people. On the other hand, the French and western European concepts were much more oriented on mandating social equality, 'human rights', etc.

This is probably the best article explaining the difference:

http://yalelawjournal.org/images/pdfs/246.pdf

To summarize: 2 fags are buttfucking in a public park, and a dude comes by, takes a photo, and posts it on the internet.

In Europe, the photographer has violated the human rights of the fags, violated their humanity and privacy and dignity and all that, and has no right to publish their photo without their permission. In doing so he can be liable for civil and even criminal penalties.

In America: Dude owns the camera. Therefore, dude owns any pictures he takes with it. Therefore, he can do whatever he wants with these pictures, including post them on the internet for all to see, and the fags can't do a damn thing about it. Cuz the dude owns the pictures.

The Western European countries that are under the influence of NATO and the American sphere.

NATO was originally created as a way for the US to protect European countries from USSR military takeover. The past decade or two, it's been a combination of EU military (used to take out 'nasty human rights abusers' like Milosevic and Ghadaddi) and source of backfill troops for the US in Afghanistan, much the same way as the Germans used Hungarian, Romanian, etc troops in WWII.

But to prove that hypothesis, you'd need a list of cases whereby these countries adopt liberal policies in order to be more in line with the US. Instead, we have the opposite. Europe got rid of the death penalty and legalized homosexuality long ago, so the US has to do it as well, according to our courts who cite 'world opinion' (unfortunately, they never give equal credence to emerging countries like China, Iran, and Saudi Arabia).

Besides, every country is obligated to take in a quota of refugees.

Says who? You're not even in the EU.

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/im...ees-per-capita

Germany, Austria, Norway, and the Netherlands are at the top of the list for European countries when it comes to 'refugees per capita'. The US is not even on the list. 'Refugees' are quite rare here and 'asylum seekers' pretty much not allowed.

[Oreka Bailoak]

Globalization of the economy is the main (if not the only) cause for mass immigration and multiculturalism. If not for the greed for cheaper labour and expanding markets, of a handful of corporations that control the economy, most of the third-worlders that have swarm our countries would have stayed put as there would be nothing for them to do here.

It's not the multinationals job to sustain a nations culture, and native population level. That is the job of the government.

Very very very true (the first part of your sentence), however they (you?) also fail to grasp that, in essence, capitalism and cultural marxism are the very two sides of the same coin.

There are countries that exist in the world today, that are not only built around capitalistic ideas but also don't have cultural marxism. Japan, Korea, Singapore, and many countries of the past, like old America, old Britain.

The difference comes down to a change in the beliefs of the population within the country. An indifference, in both the government and the populace.

It might not be as Romantic as attacking Capitalism but at least it's the truth.

[SwordoftheVistula]

1488[/I]]Yes, it's called democracy and free speech. Unlike the USA, where you're forced to choose one of two options (the Independents don't count), in European countries you have a choice. Communist parties, however, are marginal in European countries, and socialist parties only slightly less marginal, so this is not some vast communist threat.

That doesn't have anything to do with individualism, globalism, etc. It's an effect of the separate strong executive branch, lack of proportional representation, and that parties here a semi-public entity rather than membership clubs. Socialists and even communists are in the Democrat Party, and a variety of 'right wing extremists' are in the Republican Party. Basically, they just form coalitions here before the election rather than after. I can't see how this relates to the discussion of individuality, capitalism, etc.

1488[/I]]Examples? In the US, you're terrified of nudity...the same goes for the American hysteria concerning bad language, which is censored as well.

Both are fully legal in private venues. The only 'censorship' actually arises from a 'socialist' source, the broadcast television and radio bans nudity and foul language because it's "The public airwaves"

1488[/I]]Let's not forget how your government tells you where you can and can't travel (Cuba). How's that for individuality?

So is Norway 'more capitalist' than America? Where are we going with this?

1488[/I]]And when you do travel somewhere, you get harassed by TSA agents in your own country.

Quite obnoxious to be sure, but an invention of the past decade. Is law enforcement in European countries allowed to 'racially profile'? That's why we have all this TSA crap, is we aren't allowed to racially profile and pick out the Muslims for questioning.

[Hevneren]

In Europe, the photographer has violated the human rights of the fags, violated their humanity and privacy and dignity and all that, and has no right to publish their photo without their permission. In doing so he can be liable for civil and even criminal penalties.

In America: Dude owns the camera. Therefore, dude owns any pictures he takes with it. Therefore, he can do whatever he wants with these pictures, including post them on the internet for all to see, and the fags can't do a damn thing about it. Cuz the dude owns the pictures.

Exactly, and in the US you don't value privacy since it's a matter of the public. For instance, in the USA you believe your government should legislate what goes on in the privacy of the bedroom, going so far as to ban certain sexual positions (missionary seems to be the only "legal" position in all States), whereas in civilised European countries we consider what goes on in the privacy of your own home to be nobody's damn business.

As for people taking pictures in public, again it's a matter of privacy and the freedom of the individual to remain anonymous. In the USA you worship vulgar displays of exhibitionism, and you don't seem concerned with matters or privacy and anonymity. The NSA can monitor your phone calls and the Patriot Act makes it clear that you have to give up a blood sample if a federal agent commands you to. In civilised European countries, monitoring phone calls or demanding blood samples from regular citizens is illegal. The draconian US proposal to monitor all traffic over the Internet, is a hotly debated subject in civilised European countries and would be considered illegal in my country, Norway.

Obviously, since Americans are used to having their privacy and their rights violated, they don't understand (as you've illustrated) why we in civilised European countries want to keep our privacy. While you in the USA have an epidemic of identity theft and federal agents groping your groins, there'd be protestors out on the streets if Norway implemented the draconian laws the USA has.

NATO was originally created as a way for the US to protect European countries from USSR military takeover. The past decade or two, it's been a combination of EU military (used to take out 'nasty human rights abusers' like Milosevic and Ghadaddi) and source of backfill troops for the US in Afghanistan, much the same way as the Germans used Hungarian, Romanian, etc troops in WWII.

Actually, NATO was established as a mutual alliance that benefited both the USA and Western Europe.

Says who? You're not even in the EU.

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/im...ees-per-capita

Germany, Austria, Norway, and the Netherlands are at the top of the list for European countries when it comes to 'refugees per capita'. The US is not even on the list. 'Refugees' are quite rare here and 'asylum seekers' pretty much not allowed.

It's got nothing to do with the EU. The quotas are set up due to us - as practically all other nations on Earth - being signatories to a UN resolution on refugees.

As for refugees/asylum seekers, a lot of them come here thanks to the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, wars which your country is responsible for. Anyway, the largest group of immigrants coming into Norway now are Poles.

[Hevneren]

That doesn't have anything to do with individualism, globalism, etc. It's an effect of the separate strong executive branch, lack of proportional representation, and that parties here a semi-public entity rather than membership clubs. Socialists and even communists are in the Democrat Party, and a variety of 'right wing extremists' are in the Republican Party. Basically, they just form coalitions here before the election rather than after. I can't see how this relates to the discussion of individuality, capitalism, etc.

There's nothing communist or socialist about the Democratic Party.

Both are fully legal in private venues. The only 'censorship' actually arises from a 'socialist' source, the broadcast television and radio bans nudity and foul language because it's "The public airwaves"

Funny, it's always been right-wingers trying to censor artists and the like, like in the case of rock music, which was accused of being the devil's music and was also accused of causing suicides. Back in the 50's right-wingers held trials because people held different political views and opinions than what was the "standard". Free speech was illegal, and actors, politicians etc. were sentenced to jail for holding "communist" beliefs.

So is Norway 'more capitalist' than America? Where are we going with this?

No, but your assertion was basically that we're not free in European countries, which I've countered with some examples where many European countries are more free than the USA.

Quite obnoxious to be sure, but an invention of the past decade. Is law enforcement in European countries allowed to 'racially profile'? That's why we have all this TSA crap, is we aren't allowed to racially profile and pick out the Muslims for questioning.

I don't know about racial profiling in all European countries so I can't answer your question, but I do know that Britain has a separate police task force dedicated solely to combating black crime, called Trident.

[Magister Eckhart]

Really?! I was under the impression that "international communism" has failed miserably and hence now it survives only in some God-forsaken lands such as N.Korea.

Nationalised communism with a state only exists in places like North Korea, but international communism thrives everywhere there is a Communist party and Communist agents to encourage the breakdown of our society and our civilisation. Cultural Marxism was and is spread by communists, with or without a state, and the growth of socialism, itself a destructive system (the communists know this, for they consider it to be flawed and watered-down communism that will never work) is the direct result of communist urgings and the inherent flaws to the capitalist system that gave birth to and nurtured communism.

capitalism and cultural marxism are the very two sides of the same coin.

I never said differently; rather, that was rather the whole point of my posting. Liberalism is the blanket terminology that encompasses all these forms of thought that elevate material above the spirit.

[SwordoftheVistula]

There's nothing communist or socialist about the Democratic Party.

You might as well say "there's nothing capitalist or free market about the Republican Party" because George Bush supported bailouts. Fact of the matter is, most socialists are in the Democratic Party and most capitalists are in the Republican Party. Other possibility is your country is so far to the left that it doesn't matter, which reinforces my initial point in this thread that western Europe is far to the left of the rest of the world.

Funny, it's always been right-wingers trying to censor artists and the like, like in the case of rock music

Up until the 60s or so. Ancient history. Starting in the 90s, it was the left led by Tipper Gore (wife of the Vice President) trying to censor music etc.

No, but your assertion was basically that we're not free in European countries

My main assertion, in response to the initial question, is that American style capitalism and individual rights, mostly centered on property rights, does not necessarily lead to social chaos, as in Europe which has 'social freedoms' as the centerpiece for people to run around and do whatever without police interference.

The main claim here is that 'capitalism' damages social cohesion by inevitably promoting left wing social values and civil rights causes, my argument is that it does not, that it is possible to have a capitalist society which does not allow for rampant nudity & sex in public, on public media, etc and so on.

[Turkey]

This is exactly what this thread was meant to be about! We can see the divide in world views right here. There must be some reason why Americans can't see that the reason for immigration capitalism.

Maybe it isn't there?

It sure is here. They use boat people as target practice here.

Then they let them in. more cheap labour for the capitalists.

[Hevneren]

My main assertion, in response to the initial question, is that American style capitalism and individual rights, mostly centered on property rights, does not necessarily lead to social chaos, as in Europe which has 'social freedoms' as the centerpiece for people to run around and do whatever without police interference.

The main claim here is that 'capitalism' damages social cohesion by inevitably promoting left wing social values and civil rights causes, my argument is that it does not, that it is possible to have a capitalist society which does not allow for rampant nudity & sex in public, on public media, etc and so on.

What social chaos does the freedom have sex in whatever position you want, within your own home, lead to? How about the right to privacy? What are the negative implications of privacy? Indeed, how does not censoring nudity or curse words on programmes meant for adults lead to chaos? Are you suggesting that Americans are too fragile to even endure a naked nipple, before going apeshit? If so, that says far more about the fragile mental state (not to forget frigidity and rampant puritanism) of people in the USA, than it does about the validity of your claims.

No, you can't "legislate away" ideas, mental states and natural instincts. If you believe the answer to stopping humans from creating chaos is to take away their freedoms, you're going about things the wrong way. Remember the Prohibition Era in the USA? Do you know what happened after prostitution was made illegal (brothels used to be legal)?

The funny thing about your arguments is that despite all the moral hysteria in the USA, despite all the censorship and all the moral two-facedness, the USA is still the no. 1 porn capital of the world, you have the highest homicide rate in the West, the highest teenage pregnancy rate in the industrialised world, divorce rates well above many other industrialised countries, and Catholic priests in the USA alone have had to pay 600 million dollars in compensation for all the little boys who've been raped or otherwise sexually abused by these "moral" priests. It just goes to show how hypocritical, two-faced and down-right rotten your society is.

[Turkey]

Are you suggesting that Americans are too fragile to even endure a naked nipple, before going apeshit?

Only if they are African-american.