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Thread: The Divine Twins

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    Default The Divine Twins

    The concept of a pair of divine twins is an archetype that was present in Proto-Indo-European religion that is manifest in nearly every branch of the IE family tree. Romulus and Remus of the Romans, Castor and Pollux of the Greeks, the Dieva dēli of the Latvians, the Ašvieniai of the Lithuanians, and the Vedic Ashvins.

    When we look at the Germanic pantheon, however, we find not one set of twins, but three sets of brothers who are treated as respective pairs in the myths:

    • Víđarr and Váli, the sons of Óđinn

    • Móđi and Magni, the sons of Ţórr

    • Baldr and Höđr


    What I find fascinating about these Gods is that all three sets of brothers are survivors of Ragnarök. What do you guys think? Why do we have three sets of brothers as opposed to one set of twins like the other IE tribes? Why are the functions of our eschatological rather than generative (in opposition with Romulus and Remus)? Is it noteworthy that in the post-Ragnarök world is effectively ruled by these three sets of brothers?

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    Odin, Vili, Ve

    The three sets of brothers you present are double the triplet of the Most High ones.

    3 to 6.

    I like to think that Odin, Vili and Ve are triplets or different personalities of the same god.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Psychonaut View Post
    When we look at the Germanic pantheon, however, we find not one set of twins, but three sets of brothers who are treated as respective pairs in the myths:

    • Víđarr and Váli, the sons of Óđinn

    • Móđi and Magni, the sons of Ţórr

    • Baldr and Höđr


    What I find fascinating about these Gods is that all three sets of brothers are survivors of Ragnarök. What do you guys think?
    That is pretty fascinating ain’t it..?? I think our myths are very bound up in the duality of things, from fire and ice to Baldr and Höđr. Only after Ragnarök are these two things brought back together like before they were. There is that saying “two wrongs don’t make a right”, but what does one wrong and one right make..?? Balance. Yggdrasil trembles because things are off balance. Ragnarök brings balance back, and maybe even does away with the pendulum as the ( one’s ) center is found, or at least the still point out from which creativity pours forth.

    As Óđinn is the All-Father and Víđarr is his avenger they play the greatest role. As Yggdrasil trembles Víđarr restores it’s balance..

    Georges Dumézil theorized that Víđarr represents a cosmic figure from an archetype derived from the Proto-Indo-Europeans.[19] Dumézil stated that he was aligned with both vertical space, due to his placement of his foot on the wolf's lower jaw and his hand on the wolf's upper jaw, and horizontal space, due to his wide step and strong shoe, and that, by the killing the wolf, Víđarr keeps the wolf from destroying the cosmos, and the cosmos can thereafter be restored after the destruction resulting from Ragnarök.[19]

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vi%C3%B0arr
    A few more thoughts..

    Váli when he was one night old killed Höđr for killing Baldr. And Víđarr, of course, kills the Fenris Wulf for killing Óđinn. We don’t know what Móđi was up to, but Magni when he was but three nights old lifted Hrungnir’s foot off his father Thor’s chest. What we have here is vengeance. The vengeance which restores balance. And, there is something to note with both Váli and Magni having giantesses, the forces of chaos, for mothers, and gods, the forces of order, for fathers..!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Psychonaut View Post
    Is it noteworthy that in the post-Ragnarök world is effectively ruled by these three sets of brothers?
    I think so because of what I said up there. Móđi and Magni even have Mjollnir so that maybe we can do it all again.

    Quote Originally Posted by Psychonaut View Post
    Why do we have three sets of brothers as opposed to one set of twins like the other IE tribes? Why are the functions of our eschatological rather than generative (in opposition with Romulus and Remus)?
    Well, maybe at one time we had one set of twins call the Alci. And, because the Alci are Óđinn and Loki we now have all the rest as they play themselves out. I think the Alci are Óđinn and Loki because I have it figured Lođurr is Loki and that Hadding’s adventures remind me of him and he is favored by Óđinn. (?)

    Also of interest along these lines is the other set of twins, Váli and Narfi, the sons of Loki..

    In Norse mythology, Váli was a son of Loki. He is mentioned in the Gylfaginning section of Snorri Sturluson's Prose Edda. After the death of Baldr the Ćsir chase down and capture Loki.

    Now Loki was taken truceless, and was brought with them into a certain cave. Thereupon they took three flat stones, and set them on edge and drilled a hole in each stone. Then were taken Loki's sons, Váli and Nari or Narfi; the Ćsir changed Váli into the form of a wolf, and he tore asunder Narfi his brother. And the Ćsir took his entrails and bound Loki with them over the three stones: one stands under his shoulders, the second under his loins, the third under his boughs; and those bonds were turned to iron. — Brodeur's translation

    An enigmatic stanza in Völuspá seems to refer to this event and was probably Snorri's source. Váli, son of Loki, is otherwise unknown. It has been suggested that the Völuspá stanza actually refers to Váli, son of Odin, and that Snorri created the Váli, son of Loki, character to make sense of it.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/V%C3%A1li_(son_of_Loki)
    From Voluspa translated by Hollander..

    34. A captive lies in the kettle-grove
    Like to lawless Loki in shape,42
    There sits Sigyn, full sad in mind,
    By her fettered mate: know ye further, or how?

    Note 42. That is, Loki, “the ender”, (?) himself. Instead of these lines, the Hauksbok has the following:

    35. With meshes mighty made the gods then
    Girding fetters out of Vali’s guts.

    This Vali ( not to be confused with Othins son, St. 32 ) was a son of Loki. The gods transformed him into a wolf.
    Maybe there is nothing to it..?? But, again, there could just be chaos and order in one. It’s something to think about anyhow.

    Later,
    -Lyfing
    Last edited by Lyfing; 04-03-2009 at 02:08 AM.

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    I was thinking about this thread earlier today as I read Bloodfeud and Scandanavian Mythology..

    Duality within Norse Mythology can be a troublesome thing. It is apparent from the burial customs and other related beliefs that there was no duality of body and soul. They were inseparable from each other in the gravemound and that is that. Meaning that modern day notions of the soul "mounting with wings as if eagles" just didn't have any meaning back then. And, anything like that probably aught be avoided if looking at a genuine ancient Germanic notion of the afterlife. From everything it seems to say we went into the gravemound and lived. Call the gravemound Hell or Valhalla..they mean the same thing..a tomb-womb. I can probably be accused of Goddess worship here.

    But, the duality thing is of great and apparent importance as it relates to our mythology. I suggest a possible explanation of it in what John Lindow equated in..Bloodfeud and Scandanavian Mythology
    For a feud to go on there must be two "different" part(ies)s. Such a thing presents a polarity, a certain duality if one will..?? And such a thing fosters confusion of the matter.

    How can there be no duality in the afterlife..death, and yet, at the same time, (duality) be with the feud which brings death about..??

    What of Kvasir here..??

    The gods, too, have a precious token in which blood is involved, and its operation too is quite complex: the mead of poetry. Originally a symbol of the unity of the aesir and vanir, it began and ended as liquid: first as spittle, then as mead fermented from the blood of Kvasir. The intermediate part of the story is well known; as Snorri puts it, the gods created or fashioned Kvasir because “they did not wish that token of the settlement to perish” (Jónsson 1931, 82). While he is traveling the world dispensing wisdom — he can answer any question — Kvasir is slain by the dwarfs Fjalarr and Galarr. When this murderous pair dispatches the giant Gillingr and his wife, a feud is set in motion. The giant Suttungr transports the dwarfs to a tidal island — as dwarfs they would be particularly vulnerable to the rising waters — and extracts from them the mead as compensation for his father. He then delivers the mead into the safekeeping of his daughter Gunnlođ, and, in a
    complex series of events in Snorri’s recounting, Odin later succeeds in sleeping three nights with Gunnlođ and thus obtaining three sips of the mead, with which he escapes in the form of an eagle, pursued by Suttungr in like form. As we all know, Odin gets most of the mead home to the gods, and Suttungr goes down in flames.

    Kvasir’s blood is a red flag, indicating the presence of feud. The mead was a wergild passed from one group to another, and in this instance it terminates the feud before the Middle Game can get going, as is in accordance with any model of feuding. Gillingr’s wife doesn’t count for much in this scheme (as would be appropriate if giants and gods relied on an agnatic system; see below). So much is obvious. What is perhaps less clear is that the gods have a claim on the dwarfs too. Although Kvasir cannot be traced agnatically to them in any ordinary way,he was their creation, he dispenses wisdom, which is their possession, and, quite simply, he was a member of their household and therefore, like the Norwegian merchant Orn in Hśnsa-Ţóris saga, a symbolic member of their kin group for the purposes of feuding.
    Duality is an age-old philosophical argument. There is no getting around it. But, for the study of the folks in question, how did they take it..?? What was their stance and what did they get out of it is the question..?? I reckon the mythology can be a reflection of the society..??

    Later,
    -Lyfing

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    Wow.. this is very esoteric in meaning.
    SCORPIO / PHOENIX / EAGLE "Word Made Flesh"

    Known by names like The ... " The Lusty King", The Eagle and "The Crowned Serpent". ..


    Scorpio is also the Phoenix, rising up from its ashes. !


    The Heart of the Scorpion is Antares. It is a vital stage in the Halls of Wisdom.

    It is both our fiery descent into matter and our rebirth.

    Scorpio is the “Word made Flesh” as it is the sign of the world disciple. Mercury is the hierarchical ruler of Scorpio, governing the Fourth Creative Hierarchy, Humanity as souls or initiates. Scorpio “is the sign wherein the Christ demonstrates His control over matter in the guise of the triumphant disciple.”
    http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images...49346b924.jpg/

    The mythical origin of his magic twin serpent caduceus is described in the story of Tiresias. Poulenc, in 'Les Mamelles de Tiresias' (The Breasts of Tiresias) tells how Tiresias--the seer who was so unhelpful to Oepidus [sic] and Family--found two snakes copulating, and to separate them stuck his staff between them. Immediately he was turned into a woman, and remained so for seven years, until he was able to repeat his action, and change back to male.

    The transformative power in this story, strong enough to completely reverse even physical polarities of male and female, comes from the union of the two serpents, passed on by the wand. Tiresias' staff, complete with serpents, was later passed on to Hermes...

    "Occult Hermetic Connection: An occult description of the Caduceus of Hermes (Mercury) is that the serpents may represent positive and negative kundalini as it moves through the chakras and around the spine (the staff) to the head where it communicates with MIND by intellection, the domain of Mercury [wings].

    Virgo has just birthed Saturn out of her womb as the sun shines on the scales of justice...

    Stanley Kubrick understood the importance of twins.. that is why when he made The Shining he changed Steven Kings original book by portraying the ghostlt twins in the film. this was a cloaked reference to a Saturnistic fraternity.

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