Balkanic genetic study

[vbnetkhio]

It is bad, just because other studies are even worse it doesn't make this acceptable. I agree raw data they provide is very valuable, but nothing more than that.
Why use Russians or Mordovians and not Belarusians, Ukrainians or even Lithuanians? None of early Slavic samples we have were Russian like let alone Mordovian (who are sth like 5-7% Siberian)

Also senseless to use "Iron Age Greek" (which isn't even confirmed to be typical genetically for that era) to model northern Balkan populations.
They extracted tons of iron age samples in this very study yet they didn't use them. Neither did they attempt 3-way modeling with Imperial Roman like samples.

Again, i'm sure the athuors are aware of all this, but those more logical models were simply rejected by qpAdm with the outgroups they used.

You might expect academic studies to have the deepest insights, based on all available data, etc, but that's just not what they are for, that's what passionate amateurs do. And i don't seee how it could change in the near future.

Studies have to follow these strict formalities , in order to be 100% objective, sadly the result is often the opposite.

This is afaik the first study ever which acknowledges Slavic influence, i2-din as a Slavic haplogroup, attempts a modelling of south Slavs and measuring of proto-slavic ancestry in them.

For example, One of the studies on the Hungarian conquerors determined southeast Poland as the most likely place of origin for i2-din, but they couldn't say it's Slavic because of a lack of formal data. Many such examples.

[Ion Basescul]

So considering that South Slavs, bar Bulgarians and Macedonians, migrated to the Balkans around the 8-9th centuries, can we assume that the Kuline samples are the first kind of Serbs in the Balkans? Fresh off the boat (horse cart), so to speak.

[Ibericus]

Just wanted to point out they made a typo two times in the PCA, writing "Ibreia" instead of Iberia.

[CommonSense]

Supplementary Table 2. Information about newly reported present-day Serbs genotyped with the Human Origins array

Y-chr	Place of origin	Region	Country	Coordinates of place of origin
R1b-U106>Z9	Bački Maglić	Bačka	Serbia	45° 21′ 45.94″ N, 19° 31′ 54.12″ E
I2-Y3120>A1328	Bođani, Bač	Bačka	Serbia	45° 23′ 10.8″ N, 19° 6′ 15.6″ E
R1a-M458>YP417	Čitluk, Kruševac	Rasina	Serbia	43° 35′ 18″ N, 21° 16′ 25.2″ E
I2-Y3120>PH908	Donja Bejašnica, Prokuplje	Toplica	Serbia	43° 11′ 30″ N, 21° 27′ 6″ E
E-V13>A18844	Dragolj, Gornji Milanovac	Šumadija	Serbia	44° 13′ 0″ N, 20° 27′ 0″ E
I2-Y3120>PH908	Gornji Kozji Dol, Trgovište	Vranjsko Ponišavlje	Serbia	42° 19′ 23.88″ N, 22° 6′ 24.12″ E
I2-Y3120>PH908	Guncati, Knić	Šumadija	Serbia	43° 53′ 2.4″ N, 20° 39′ 28.8″ E
E-V13>Z16988	Jabučje, Lajkovac	Kolubara	Serbia	43° 59′ 56.07″ N, 20° 59′ 29.11″ E
R1a-Z280>Y2902	Jovac, Vladičin Han	Vranjsko Ponišavlje	Serbia	42° 38′ 39.12″ N, 22° 0′ 11.16″ E
T-L131	Lešnica, Loznica	Mačva	Serbia	44° 39′ 5.4″ N, 19° 18′ 21.6″ E
I2-Y3120>PH908	Merdželat, Svrljig	Ponišavlje	Serbia	43° 25′ 19.8″ N, 22° 5′ 12″ E
E-M81	Neuzina, Sečanj	Zapadni Banat	Serbia	45° 20′ 40.74″ N, 20° 42′ 45.79″ E
Q-L245>BZ3000	Ostra, Čačak	Šumadija	Serbia	43° 54′ 20.16″ N, 20° 29′ 36.96″ E
E-V13>A24066	Pečenjevce, Leskovac	Jablanica	Serbia	43° 6′ 1.2″ N, 21° 55′ 0″ E
J2-L283>PH1602	Rusna, Doljevac	Ponišavlje	Serbia	43° 11′ 24″ N, 21° 53′ 31.2″ E
I2-Y3120>PH908	Supovac, Niš	Ponišavlje	Serbia	43° 23′ 12″ N, 21° 45′ 18″ E
G2-L497>Y128028	Veliko Orašje, Velika Plana	Šumadija	Serbia	44° 22′ 8.11″ N, 21° 5′ 9.6″ E
E-V13	Viteževo, Žabari	Braničevo	Serbia	44° 17′ 24.6″ N, 21° 15′ 5.4″ E
I2-Y3120>PH908	Zablaće, Čačak	Stari Vlah	Serbia	43° 50′ 48.12″ N, 20° 27′ 0″ E
T-Y11151	Vrutok, Gostivar	Zapadna Makedonija	North Macedonia	41° 46′ 6.96″ N, 20° 50′ 20.76″ E
R1a-M420	Barlovo, Kuršumlija	Toplica	Montenegro	42° 44′ 1.39″ N, 19° 47′ 30.25″ E
J2-M205>Y22059	Škaljar, Kotor	Zeta	Montenegro	42° 25′ 4.2″ N, 18° 45′ 35.4″ E
E-V13>Y37092	Berane	Brda	Montenegro	42° 50′ 33.72″ N, 19° 52′ 15.6″ E
E-V13>BY165837	Medun, Podgorica	Brda	Montenegro	42° 28′ 18.44″ N, 19° 21′ 47.89″ E
I1-P109>FGC22045	Pavino Polje, Bijelo Polje	Brda	Montenegro	43° 8′ 15″ N, 19° 37′ 43″ E
J2-L283>Z638	Predobrđe, Kolašin	Brda	Montenegro	42° 43' 32" N, 19° 25' 42" E
J1-Z18463>ZS3128	Šekular, Andrijevica	Brda	Montenegro	42° 44′ 1.39″ N, 19° 47′ 30.25″ E
I2-Y3120*	Đevraske, Kistanje	Dalmacija	Croatia	43° 57′ 11.12″ N, 15° 51′ 3.82″ E
E-V13	Grabovac Banski, Petrinja	Banija	Croatia	45° 19′ 50.74″ N, 16° 14′ 18.17″ E
I2-Y3120>PH908	Plaški	Lika	Croatia	45° 4′ 53.05″ N, 15° 21′ 44.59″ E
I2-Y3120	Smrdelje, Kistanje	Dalmacija	Croatia	43° 56′ 1.4″ N, 15° 54′ 3.86″ E
I2-Y3120>PH908	Trpinja	Zapadni Srem	Croatia	45° 25′ 9″ N, 18° 53′ 57.09″ E
I2-Y3120>PH908	Banja Luka	Bosanska Krajina	Bosnia and Herzegovina	44° 46′ 19.74″ N, 17° 11′ 27.28″ E
I2-Y3120>PH908	Pale	Istočna Bosna	Bosnia and Herzegovina	43° 48′ 45.36″ N, 18° 34′ 5.59″ E
J1-ZS4393>ZS9949	Poplat, Stolac	Hercegovina	Bosnia and Herzegovina	43° 2′ 25.43″ N, 18° 0′ 1.37″ E
E-M35 v I2-M223	Rilić, Kupres	Bosanska Krajina	Bosnia and Herzegovina	43° 54′ 46.8″ N, 17° 15′ 50.4″ E
J2-M205>Y22059	Rogatica	Istočna Bosna	Bosnia and Herzegovina	43° 47′ 55.82″ N, 19° 0′ 13.61″ E

The one outlier on the PCA who almost clusters with Albos is almost certainly that fellow from Macedonia. All others plot within the normal Serbian range, considering they are people from various different regions.

[CommonSense]

Btw, modeling with modern Russians and even Mordovians (!), as Slavic proxy is very poor and unprofessional conduct, especially when we know early Slavs were not like Russians. And especially not like Uralic Mordovians.....seeing this kind of low level even at Harvard is pretty sad, to be honest.

I also don't agree at all for this 2-way modeling with Empiures samples which are very inadequate for anything north of Greece. Obviously SE Europeans aren't simple 2-way populations mix.
Thus NE European/Slavic affinity in eg. Albanians is heavily inflated, due to wrong choice of proxies in the model.

These 10th century Serbian samples look like Slavs from Timok tribe, heavily admixed with Thracians.

All in all, another lazy and disappointing study. Modeling they do is just awful. It's frustrating to know these people do it worse than amateurs here.

Why do you think it's inflated? Most models we ourselves used also gave them around 25% Early Slavic ancestry. This just confirmed what we already knew.

As a side note, don't you find it interesting how two individuals from Iberia of all places were found in a 10th century Eastern Serbian tomb? I think they must have been some sort of mercenaries.

[Ion Basescul]

The one outlier on the PCA who almost clusters with Albos is almost certainly that fellow from Macedonia. All others plot within the normal Serbian range, considering they are people from various different regions.

I'm more interested in why most of the Croats here are more Southern than the Romanian sample from Alba.

This is him on K13 and 7 out of 10 Croats are more Southern than him on their PCA, while 2 are similar. Only one plots deep with Hungarians, like the current averages.

N_Atlantic	Baltic	West_Med	West_Asian	East_Med	Red_Sea	South_Asian	East_Asian	Siberian	Amerindian	Oceanian	NE_African	Sub-Saharan
26.75	28.14	17.13	9.94	11.75	2.41	0.27	0	0.77	1.92	0.93	0	0

These are the Croatian averages on K13

	N_Atlantic	Baltic	West_Med	West_Asian	East_Med	Red_Sea	South_Asian	East_Asian	Siberian	Amerindian	Oceanian	NE_African	Sub-Saharan
Croat	28.1	33.15	15.02	7.76	12.05	1.4	0.49	0.28	0.59	0.54	0.38	0.12	0.1
Croat_East	26.84	34.6	14.13	8.26	12.31	1.43	0.22	0.12	1.08	0.68	0.3	0.01	0.01
Croat_North	30.06	34.35	14.42	7.05	10.1	1.33	0.54	0.31	0.52	0.61	0.4	0.16	0.14
Croat_South	26.36	31.83	15.92	8.38	13.6	1.47	0.5	0.28	0.56	0.47	0.37	0.12	0.11
Croat_West	28.53	31.6	15.24	7.61	13.31	1.38	0.61	0.38	0.36	0.38	0.4	0.13	0.07

[CommonSense]

I'm more interested in why most of the Croats here are more Southern than the Romanian sample from Alba.

This is him on K13 and 7 out of 10 Croats are more Southern than him on their PCA, while 2 are similar. Only one plots deep with Hungarians, like the current averages.

N_Atlantic	Baltic	West_Med	West_Asian	East_Med	Red_Sea	South_Asian	East_Asian	Siberian	Amerindian	Oceanian	NE_African	Sub-Saharan
26.75	28.14	17.13	9.94	11.75	2.41	0.27	0	0.77	1.92	0.93	0	0

These are the Croatian averages on K13

	N_Atlantic	Baltic	West_Med	West_Asian	East_Med	Red_Sea	South_Asian	East_Asian	Siberian	Amerindian	Oceanian	NE_African	Sub-Saharan
Croat	28.1	33.15	15.02	7.76	12.05	1.4	0.49	0.28	0.59	0.54	0.38	0.12	0.1
Croat_East	26.84	34.6	14.13	8.26	12.31	1.43	0.22	0.12	1.08	0.68	0.3	0.01	0.01
Croat_North	30.06	34.35	14.42	7.05	10.1	1.33	0.54	0.31	0.52	0.61	0.4	0.16	0.14
Croat_South	26.36	31.83	15.92	8.38	13.6	1.47	0.5	0.28	0.56	0.47	0.37	0.12	0.11
Croat_West	28.53	31.6	15.24	7.61	13.31	1.38	0.61	0.38	0.36	0.38	0.4	0.13	0.07

Actually his result seems like that of a normal Western Balkanite. But if he's one of the more northern-plotting ones, that would imply all the other Balkan samples are soutern-shifted compared to their respective ethnicity! That's highly unusual indeed. Can you post the K13 for all the present-day samples they used?

[Ajeje Brazorf]

Btw, modeling with modern Russians and even Mordovians (!), as Slavic proxy is very poor and unprofessional conduct, especially when we know early Slavs were not like Russians. And especially not like Uralic Mordovians.....seeing this kind of low level even at Harvard is pretty sad, to be honest.

I also don't agree at all for this 2-way modeling with Empiures samples which are very inadequate for anything north of Greece. Obviously SE Europeans aren't simple 2-way populations mix.
Thus NE European/Slavic affinity in eg. Albanians is heavily inflated, due to wrong choice of proxies in the model.

These 10th century Serbian samples look like Slavs from Timok tribe, heavily admixed with Thracians.

All in all, another lazy and disappointing study. Modeling they do is just awful. It's frustrating to know these people do it worse than amateurs here.

New regions and countries were even created in the study, such as "Ibreia" and "Hunagry"

[XenophobicPrussian]

Roman Empire and Byzantium were seemingly ruled by ancient Angela Merkels.

[Jana]

I'm more interested in why most of the Croats here are more Southern than the Romanian sample from Alba.

This is him on K13 and 7 out of 10 Croats are more Southern than him on their PCA, while 2 are similar. Only one plots deep with Hungarians, like the current averages.

They are obviously heavily unrepresentative. Would be interested in information where they are from.