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Thread: Portuguese eye color (Parliament study)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Milkaner View Post
    I decided to do my own Portuguese parliament study to determine once and for all if ~77% of Portuguese really have pure brown eyes as I had previously insisted based on the survey of 11.601 adults A Pigmentação dos Portugueses by Tamagnini. Since you already opened a thread for a previous set of deputies at the Portuguese parliament, I have decided to post my data here instead of creating a new thread.

    I have based my classifications on the general concept of 1931 K. Saller scale used by Tamagnini as least as I thought. There were three categories which through observation I attempted to characterize:

    S-Pure light: Only blue & lighter-greyish eyes without indication of rayed or zoned pigmented pattern. There can be isolated marginal flecks that are not apparent with typical photos but there can be no pigmented rings of any degree. There can however be a mixture between multiple bluish and greyish shades.

    M-Mixed: Any hint of green (even bluish-green) or where there is indication of a rayed or zoned pigmented pattern. It does not matter if the iris is predominantly light such as with Hugo Martins de Carvalho or Paulo Ramalho. In the rare cases where there were doubts regarding classification such as with Luís Capoulas Santos or Marcos Perestrello, this category served as a default. Dark greyish eyes that can look almost brown/black are melanated, so the default should be accurate. Note that in most cases multiple photos were used for mixed determinations.

    P-Pure dark: Near black to honey-colored or amber encompassing the entire iris as can be ascertained from standard photo distances. Includes mixed brown eyes which are a mixture of lighter and darker brownish/yellowish shades, but excludes eyes that have a greenish or other lighter element.

    For those who have yet to see it, here is the K. Saller scale which Lucas kindly photoshopped to make as clear as possible:


    Results with one obviously non-Caucasoid deputy (Romualda Nunes Fernandes) excluded:

    Pure light in Parliament: 7,42% vs 7,13% by Tamagnini.

    Mixed in Parliament: 27,51% vs 15,13% by Tamagnini.

    Pure dark in Parliament: 64,63% vs 77,74% by Tamagnini.

    Tamagnini's pure light figure and my own match up almost exactly which tells me something was done right. Pure blue/grey eyes are not difficult to determine because it is only necessary to identify pigmentation and not characterize the degree of pigmentation. The scale was also rather unambiguous for pure light. My figure for mixed eyes is much higher (and consequently for dark eyes much lower) because my conception of pure brown eyes was more rigorous. Dark hazel eyes were obviously counted as dark by Tamagnini (possibly as P6-P8), while I always counted that as mixed. Thus my earlier characterization of Portuguese eye color based on the A Pigmentação dos Portugueses survey was incorrect.

    Portuguese and the darker end of Southern Europeans in general overlap only with a few atypically light West Eurasian populations outside Europe (e.g. Samaritans or Kafiristan Nuristanis) in the frequency of pure brown eyes. Sardinians an outlier population unlike Portuguese are significantly darker eyed (~76% pure brown Martin-Schultz #9-16) and are actually not far off from Turks and Syrians. Portuguese are perhaps slightly more pure brown eyed than Andalusians by Dr. Frederick S. Hulse in "The Comparative Physical Anthropology of Andalusians and Cubans" where he found 60% in 420 adult male subjects. Hulse and I appear to share the same rigorous standard of pure brown eyes probably closest to Bunak #1-4 or Martin #1-5. Spaniards overall are undoubtedly in the 50-60% range for pure brown eyes but a more precise figure will not be clear until I after conduct a separate study of the Cortes Generales using the the same standards.

    Full Data for all 230 incumbent deputies:
    Code:
    Adão Silva: M
    Afonso Oliveira: M
    Agostinho Santa: P
    Alexandra Leitão: M
    Alexandre Poço: M
    Alexandre Quintanilha: S
    Alexandre Simões: P
    Alfredo Maia: M
    Alma Rivera: M
    Ana Bernardo: P
    Ana Isabel Santos: M
    Anabela Real: S
    Anabela Rodrigues: P
    André Coelho Lima: P
    André Pinotes Batista: P
    André Ventura: P
    Andreia Neto: P
    António Cunha: P 
    António Maló de Abreu: M
    António Monteirinho: P
    António Pedro Faria: M
    António Prôa: P
    António Sales: S
    António Topa Gomes: P
    Artur Soveral Andrade: P
    Augusto Santos Silva: P
    Bárbara Dias: P
    Bernardo Blanco: P
    Berta Nunes: M
    Bruno Aragão: P
    Bruno Coimbra: P
    Bruno Dias: P
    Bruno Nunes: P
    Carla Castro: P
    Carla Madureira: P
    Carla Sousa: P
    Carlos Brás: P
    Carlos Cação: M
    Carlos Eduardo Reis: P
    Carlos Guimarães Pinto: P
    Carlos Pereira: P
    Catarina Lobo: M 
    Catarina Rocha Ferreira: P
    César Vasconcelos: S
    Clara Marques Mendes: P
    Clarisse Campos: P
    Cláudia André: S
    Cláudia Bento: M
    Cláudia Santos: P
    Cristiana Ferreira: P
    Cristina Mendes da Silva: P
    Cristina Sousa: P
    Dinis Faísca: P
    Dinis Ramos: P
    Diogo Cunha: M
    Diogo Leão: P
    Diogo Pacheco de Amorim: S
    Dora Brandão: S
    Duarte Alves: P
    Duarte Pacheco: P
    Edite Estrela: P
    Eduardo Alves: P
    Eduardo Oliveira: P
    Emília Cerqueira: M
    Eurico Brilhante Dias: P
    Eurídice Pereira: P
    Fátima Correia Pinto: P
    Fátima Ramos: M
    Fernanda Velez: M
    Fernando José: M
    Fernando Negrão: M
    Filipe Melo: P
    Filipe Neto Brandão: P
    Firmino Marques: M
    Firmino Pereira: P
    Francisco César: P
    Francisco Dinis: P
    Francisco Pereira de Oliveira: S
    Francisco Pimentel: M
    Gabriel Mithá Ribeiro: P
    Gabriela Fonseca: P
    Germana Rocha: M
    Gil Costa: P
    Gilberto Anjos: P
    Guilherme Almeida: P
    Helga Correia: P
    Hugo Carneiro: M
    Hugo Carvalho: M
    Hugo Costa: P
    Hugo Maravilha: P
    Hugo Martins de Carvalho: M
    Hugo Oliveira: P
    Hugo Patrício Oliveira: P
    Inês Barroso: P
    Inês de Sousa Real: P
    Irene Costa: P
    Isabel Alves Moreira: P
    Isabel Guerreiro: P
    Isabel Meireles: P
    Isabel Pires: P
    Isaura Morais: P
    Ivan Gonçalves: P
    Jamila Madeira: P
    Joana Barata Lopes: P
    Joana Cordeiro: P
    Joana Lima: M
    Joana Mortágua: P
    Joana Sá Pereira: P
    João Azevedo: P
    João Azevedo Castro: P
    João Barbosa de Melo: M
    João Cotrim Figueiredo: P
    João Dias: P
    João Dias Coelho: P
    João Galamba: P
    João Marques: P
    João Miguel Nicolau: P
    João Montenegro: M
    João Moura: P
    João Paulo Rebelo: P
    João Prata: S
    João Torres: M
    Joaquim Barreto: P
    Joaquim Miranda Sarmento: M
    Jorge Botelho: P
    Jorge Gabriel Martins: P
    Jorge Galveias: M
    Jorge Paulo Oliveira: M
    Jorge Salgueiro Mendes: M
    Jorge Seguro Sanches: P
    José Carlos Alexandrino: M
    José Carlos Barbosa: P
    José Moura Soeiro: P
    José Pedro Ferreira: P
    José Rui Cruz: P
    José Silvano: P
    Lina Lopes: S
    Lúcia Araújo da Silva: P
    Luís Capoulas Santos: M
    Luís Graça: P
    Luís Soares: P
    Manuel dos Santos Afonso: P
    Mara Lagriminha Coelho: S
    Marcos Perestrello: M
    Maria Antónia de Almeida Santos: P
    Maria Begonha: P
    Maria da Luz Rosinha: S
    Maria de Fátima Fonseca: P
    Maria Emília Apolinário: P
    Maria João Castro: M
    Mariana Mortágua: P
    Marta Freitas: P
    Marta Temido: S
    Miguel Cabrita: M
    Miguel dos Santos Rodrigues: P
    Miguel Iglésias: S
    Miguel Matos: M
    Miguel Santos: M
    Mónica Quintela: M
    Nathalie Oliveira:P
    Nelson Brito: P
    Norberto Patinho: M
    Nuno Carvalho: P
    Ofélia Ramos: M
    Olga Silvestre: P
    Palmira Maciel: S
    Patrícia Dantas: P
    Patrícia Faro: M
    Patrícia Gilvaz: P
    Paula Cardoso: P
    Paula Reis: P
    Paula Santos: P
    Paulo Araújo Correia: P
    Paulo Moniz: P
    Paulo Mota Pinto: P
    Paulo Pisco: P
    Paulo Ramalho: M
    Paulo Rios de Oliveira: P
    Pedro Anastácio: P
    Pedro Cegonho: P
    Pedro Coimbra: P
    Pedro Delgado Alves: P
    Pedro do Carmo: P
    Pedro dos Santos Frazão: P
    Pedro Filipe Soares: P
    Pedro Melo Lopes: P
    Pedro Nuno Santos: P
    Pedro Pessanha: P
    Pedro Pinto: M
    Pedro Roque: M
    Pompeu Martins: P
    Porfírio Silva: M
    Raquel Ferreira: M
    Ricardo Lima: M
    Ricardo Lino: M
    Ricardo Pinheiro: P
    Ricardo Sousa: P
    Rita Borges Madeira: S
    Rita Matias: P
    Rodrigo Saraiva: M
    Romualda Nunes Fernandes: x (excluded due to Negroid phenotype)
    Rosário Gambôa: M
    Rosina Ribeiro Pereira: P
    Rui Afonso: P
    Rui Cristina: P
    Rui Cruz: M
    Rui Lage: M
    Rui Paulo Sousa: M
    Rui Rocha: P
    Rui Tavares: P
    Rui Vilar: M
    Salvador Formiga: M
    Sara Madruga da Costa: P
    Sara Velez: P
    Sérgio Ávila: P
    Sérgio Monte: M  
    Sérgio Sousa Pinto: P
    Sobrinho Teixeira: P
    Sofia Andrade: P
    Sofia Matos: P
    Sónia Ramos: P
    Susana Amador: P
    Susana Barroso: S
    Susana Correia: P
    Tiago Barbosa Ribeiro: P
    Tiago Brandão Rodrigues: M
    Tiago Estevão Martins: M
    Tiago Moreira de Sá: P
    Tiago Soares Monteiro: M
    Vera Braz: M
    I appreciate you taking the time to do this. The timing is funny because there is another election scheduled to tomorrow, because the PM resigned a few months ago. So the composition of the parliament will be changing again.

    I disagree with a few of the classifications, i didn't go through all of them but at least these i would have made differently:

    You might have googled another Anabela Rodrigues which is another politician that has the same name, but the one in the parliament i would have counted as Light (S) and not Dark (P):



    I also would have counted Hugo Carvalho and Vera Braz as Light (S). You have them both at M (Mixed)




    And i would have counted Diogo Cunha as Dark (P). You have him as M (Mixed)



    Regarding the Lebannon comparison, when i saw the Saller scale i immediately noticed a very ambiguous frontier between P and M and also between M and S. So unless the Lebannon study was done the same way, comparisons will always be innacurate.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Damião de Góis View Post
    I appreciate you taking the time to do this. The timing is funny because there is another election scheduled to tomorrow, because the PM resigned a few months ago. So the composition of the parliament will be changing again.

    I disagree with a few of the classifications, i didn't go through all of them but at least these i would have made differently:

    You might have googled another Anabela Rodrigues which is another politician that has the same name, but the one in the parliament i would have counted as Light (S) and not Dark (P):



    I also would have counted Hugo Carvalho and Vera Braz as Light (S). You have them both at M (Mixed)




    And i would have counted Diogo Cunha as Dark (P). You have him as M (Mixed)



    Regarding the Lebannon comparison, when i saw the Saller scale i immediately noticed a very ambiguous frontier between P and M and also between M and S. So unless the Lebannon study was done the same way, comparisons will always be innacurate.
    Interestingly the first lady has a look that is very typical in southern England, I think the ned element is underestimated here but it is obvious in many people.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Damião de Góis View Post
    I appreciate you taking the time to do this. The timing is funny because there is another election scheduled to tomorrow, because the PM resigned a few months ago. So the composition of the parliament will be changing again.

    I disagree with a few of the classifications, i didn't go through all of them but at least these i would have made differently:

    You might have googled another Anabela Rodrigues which is another politician that has the same name, but the one in the parliament i would have counted as Light (S) and not Dark (P):



    I also would have counted Hugo Carvalho and Vera Braz as Light (S). You have them both at M (Mixed)




    And i would have counted Diogo Cunha as Dark (P). You have him as M (Mixed)



    Regarding the Lebannon comparison, when i saw the Saller scale i immediately noticed a very ambiguous frontier between P and M and also between M and S. So unless the Lebannon study was done the same way, comparisons will always be innacurate.
    Including the wrong Anabela Rodrigues was an error made because she was the only politician that came up when I googled "Anabela Rodrigues PSD" as if there were multiple I always checked. Fortune you pointed that out. I corrected my figures which also missed Nathalie Oliveira (P) when adding up because I did not separate between the colon and her classification in the document. Pure brown is still the same ~65% with the two corrections.

    Regarding the disagreements we had a notable difference in standards. I included any eyes from blue-green to dark hazel as mixed. Hence Diogo Cunha with darker hazel eyes is mixed as are Hugo Carvalho & Vera Braz with light mixed eyes. If you examine them as close up as possible which I tended to do for potential mixed eyes, mixture is quite apparent. I thought that because the dark series all had greyish rims rather than bluish it meant they were supposed to be pure brown. That was certainly not the case as darker hazel must have been included to approach 77%.

    K. Saller scale based on Tamagnini's results:

    P: Pure brown and dark mixed

    M: Evenly and light mixed

    S: Pure blue/light-greyish

    With Vera Braz she obviously has a slight pigmented ring even from a moderate distance but you have to look up close with Hugo Carvalho:


    Diogo Cunha is obviously mixed/hazel in this close up photo:
    Last edited by Melkiirs; 03-09-2024 at 08:06 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Milkaner View Post
    Including the wrong Anabela Rodrigues was an error made because she was the only politician that came up when I googled "Anabela Rodrigues PSD" as if there were multiple I always checked. Fortune you pointed that out. I corrected my figures which also missed Nathalie Oliveira (P) when adding up because I did not separate between the colon and her classification in the document. Pure brown is still the same ~65%.

    Regarding the disagreements we had a notable difference in standards. I included any eyes from blue-green to dark hazel as mixed. Hence Diogo Cunha with darker hazel eyes is mixed as are Hugo Carvalho & Vera Braz with light mixed eyes. If you examine them as close up as possible which I tended to do for potential mixed eyes, mixture is quite apparent. I thought that because the dark series all had greyish rims rather than bluish it meant they were supposed to be pure brown. That was certainly not the case as darker hazel must have been included to approach 77%.

    K. Saller scale based on Tamagnini's results:

    P: Pure brown and dark mixed

    M: Evenly and light mixed

    S: Pure blue/light-greyish

    With Vera Braz she obviously has a slight pigmented ring even from a moderate distance but you have to look up close with Hugo Carvalho:


    Diogo Cunha is obviously mixed/hazel in this close up photo:
    There are two Hugo Carvalhos, one is PS and one is PSD. In your list you have them as Hugo Carvalho and Hugo Martins de Carvalho and both were classified as M. I disagree with the first one. I think he is Light (S) and not Mixed (M). Here they are:





    I don't remember how i classified Hugo Martins de Carvalho in my original post but i'm ok with him being an M. In my opinion Vera Braz is much more debatable:


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    Quote Originally Posted by Damião de Góis View Post
    There are two Hugo Carvalhos, one is PS and one is PSD. In your list you have them as Hugo Carvalho and Hugo Martins de Carvalho and both were classified as M. I disagree with the first one. I think he is Light (S) and not Mixed (M). Here they are:





    I don't remember how i classified Hugo Martins de Carvalho in my original post but i'm ok with him being an M. In my opinion Vera Braz is much more debatable:

    Hugo Carvalho (PS) is pure light I agree fully with that. I must mixed him up with Hugo Martins de Carvalho because his case is quite obvious.

    As for Vera Braz she has light greenish eyes. Greenish eyes are more pigmented than blue/grey as they have at least yellowish/brownish spots. I understand how it could be perceived as borderline but as far as I am aware aware lighter greenish eyes are considered light mixed.

    Here are her eyes close up:


    Paulo Ramalho is also a possibly debatable case because his eyes can look fully light from a moderate distance but mixed from close up:

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    Quote Originally Posted by Milkaner View Post
    Hugo Carvalho (PS) is pure light I agree fully with that. I must mixed him up with Hugo Martins de Carvalho because his case is quite obvious.

    As for Vera Braz she has light greenish eyes. Greenish eyes are more pigmented than blue/grey as they have at least yellowish/brownish spots. I understand how it could be perceived as borderline but as far as I am aware aware lighter greenish eyes are considered light mixed.

    Here are her eyes close up:


    Paulo Ramalho is also a possibly debatable case because his eyes can look fully light from a moderate distance but mixed from close up:
    Based on their previous pictures i did put Vera Braz as Light but i remember i put Marta Temido as Mixed. In my original post i had Anabela Rodrigues as Light as well, and i see you have her as Mixed:



    As for Paulo Ramalho i don't remember him. I checked and he wasn't there in the previous composition. But based on that zoom i would have considered those eyes to be blue/grey.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Damião de Góis View Post
    Based on their previous pictures i did put Vera Braz as Light but i remember i put Marta Temido as Mixed. In my original post i had Anabela Rodrigues as Light as well, and i see you have her as Mixed:



    As for Paulo Ramalho i don't remember him. I checked and he wasn't there in the previous composition. But based on that zoom i would have considered those eyes to be blue/grey.
    It is odd that you would put Marta Temido as mixed and Vera Braz as pure light when Temido's eyes are apparently no more pigmented. This shows that mixture can be much more apparent in certain photos than others.

    I now see how Temido is actually light mixed despite not looking greenish to me from a moderate distance:


    If I saw that photo before I would have classified Temido as M. Regardless 7-8% pure light eyes for Portugal seems about right and matches up well with Tamagnini.
    Last edited by Melkiirs; 03-09-2024 at 11:14 PM.

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