Alsatians - What do you think of Germany and Baden?

[Sebastianus Rex]

Most Alsatians I've met in real life were fiercely anti-German. Strange? No, blame the French educational system.

It was not always like that:

Riquewihr 1942



Strasbourg 1941

[ficuscarica]

Hm, the question is whether the Alsatians wanted those flags.

[Ouistreham]

Ouistreham, thanks for your contribution to this topic. I agree with you on almost everything.
How come you know so much about German architecture?

I have a passion for vernacular achitecture. Because it's one of the most stable features that distinguish a regional popular culture, and because France offers an incredible field of investigation, with hundred different styles and endless variation within each district.

Some foreigners think Alsatian towns like Riquewihr (Reichenweiher in German and probably Richewihr in Alsatian dialect) look like historic German towns such as Rothenburg ob der Tauber. To me Riquewihr has a distinct Alsatian vibe that I can clearly discern from similar historic cities on the other side of the rhine.

Quite right.
Probably because between Riquewihr, Kaysersberg and Ribeauvillé (Rappoldsweiler) there are more differences than between, say, Freiburg in Breisgau and Marburg an der Lahn, despite the considerably longer distance.

[ficuscarica]

I don´t think that´s what I´m talking about. The timber-frambed houses show great diversity, but they all can be classified as Allemanic, just like old Freiburg houses, which really are different from houses in Marburg and even in Heidelberg.

Maybe the Alsatian diversity in colour and individual design of the buildings (although most houses are Allemanic timber-framed) is the thing that makes Alsace unique?

[ficuscarica]

Want to hear Alsatian?

Famous German poem in Alsatian dialect:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gNs65...eature=related
Alsatian anthem:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hCTa2...eature=related
talking:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lTiVS...eature=related

[Albion]

This Waltz guy is interesting. In Alsace there have always been two groups - pro France and pro Germany. I fully accept the Alsatian choice to be a part of France. But for centuries they politically belonged to France, but stilled maintained their Allemanic culture. I really hope that they will be able to keep their identity as Allemanic people.
It would be a tragedy if they lost their unique Allemanic culture with some French influence. The Alsatian dialect is really beautiful and their cultural achievements shouldn´t be "frenchified" in a non-historical way.

I don't think the Alsatians / Alsaciens will disappear, I think France has strong regional identities still. I think most people in France seem loyal to it though, even the Norman movement and most of the Bretons seem to just want more autonomy within France.

Luxembourgers seem to be another German / French mix, but Franconian speakers I believe.

There are quite a view Alsatians that want Alsace to be an independent country and some even like the idea of a union between Baden, Southern Palatinate and Alsace (which would be a country named upper rhine ). But I think far less would like to become part of the German Republic, there´s a huge cultural gap between people from Berlin and Hamburg and the people from here or Alsace. Culturally I feel much closer to an Allemanic Alsatian than to somebody from Hamburg.

I know there's the whole Allemanic think in Baden, Alsace and Switzerland, but what about Bavaria and Austria?
Voralberg in Austria and Lichtenstein are Allemanic too, but would you include all of Bavaria and Austria as well or would they be better as a separate country?

The German speaking area could really be divided into three similar sub-identities. The North Germans seem closest to the Dutch because the Dutch basically are North Germans whilst Austria and Bavaria and then the Allemanic areas have distinct identities.
I'm not sure where the Franconian speakers fit though, probably more with the North Germans and Dutch.

The landscapes and influences are different too. The North Germans have strong ties to the Dutch and Danes and have a cooler climate with large plains and low hills.
The south of Germany is more linked with Switzerland, Austria and the countries around there such as France and Italy. The climate is warmer and the landscape more mountainous.
There's also the religious differences too.

I don't think it'd be a good idea to carve Germany up into lots of little pieces though. Whether these regional identities extend across borders or not, the national identities have still formed.
Take the Dutch or the Swiss for example - trying asking them to dissolve their nations and create a totally new state with people they've been divided from for a long time - it'd never happen.

It's good that the Allemanics recognise their links though.

[Albion]

Alsace does not look typically German. The timber-framed houses are indeed Alemannic style, but there are French elements also. I don´t know the different types of architecture well, but there´s an obvious French influence and especially visitors from Northern Germany find it French-looking according to my experience.

That being said I admit that the high number of Alemannic timber-framed houses can look very German to visitors from abroad. Baden originally had just as many timber-framed houses, but due to our prospering economy many Germans and foreigners migrated to Baden and once small villages have become small towns with many modern buildings that lack the historic German look. Unfortunately, I have to say...

Alsace apparently didn´t face such a rapid growth and thus the villages often were able to maintain there "historic" vibe. If you´d go back fifty years in time Baden and Alsace looked almost the same, only with a higher number of French-influenced buildings.
To sum it up: The original architecture is less German than on the other side of the Rhine, but has more French influence. Due to the rapid growth of the population in Baden the historic Alemanic vibe got lost in many parts, which creates the illusion that Alsace buildings are more German, although they are the opposite.
If you go to the small villages in Southern Palatinate you will find many historic German looking buildings, too. Compared to Alsace there´s less French influence in those villages as well.

I don't know, we have a lot of timber framed buildings in the Welsh Marches but they're very different from those in Central Europe.

Every time I've seen pictures of Alsace I've seen those houses and they've always struck me as very German / Central European.
There will be differences I'm sure, but I personally cannot detect them.

[Ouistreham]

The North Germans [ ... ] have a cooler climate with large plains and low hills.
The south of Germany is more linked with Switzerland, Austria and the countries around there such as France and Italy. The climate is warmer and the landscape more mountainous.

Don't believe that. In Germany average elevations increase continuously from North to South, so that average temperatures are more or less everywhere the same.
I've often heard Hamburger transplants in Bavaria complaining about the long and harsh winters of the South, winters are a lot milder in Lower Saxony (but summer is cooler and rainier).

There's a more or less similar situation in France, with plains, hills, plateaux and mountains getting higher from the North-West to the South-East. The latter part has much more contrasted seasons but yearly average temperatures are almost constant (except that the Mediterranean coast brings a dramatic change).

It's fascinating how much European nations seem to be closely adapted to specific temperature conditions (wich makes the U.S. of A. so confusing to our eyes: how come the same core ethnicity is at home in New England, Florida, Texas, Minnesota, or California?).

[Sebastianus Rex]

Hm, the question is whether the Alsatians wanted those flags.

Some did want those flags, some did not. You see the flags on the windows/walls of normal houses in Riquewihr, they are not official buildings just common people houses. I guess the sentiment was very pro-germanic at that time, now has changed.

[Aviane]

I would hope Alsatians don't break away from the concept of the Grossedeutsche, but again such ideals seem like things of the past and long lost to mythology.


I have some ancestry from Alasce Lorraine, and I know the one side spoke German, and the others further back in the early to mid 1700s spoke French.


That said despite the fact they spoke French or affiliated themselves with the French they still had rather German sounding names and surnames. The area looks beautiful, and I have always been fascinated with the culture of Alasce Lorraine and other Northern French places, which are heavily influenced by Germanic components.

I agree with every part of this.