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  • The Anglo-Saxons wiped out / forced out the Britons

    4 5.41%
  • The Anglo-Saxons assimilated (mixed) with the Britons and replaced the culture

    32 43.24%
  • The Anglo-Saxons replaced the Britons in most areas but not others

    6 8.11%
  • The Anglo-Saxons replaced the Britons in the East but not in the West

    11 14.86%
  • The Anglo-Saxons out-bred the Britons

    5 6.76%
  • A mixture of all of these - different ones in different areas

    25 33.78%
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Thread: Anglo-Saxon invasion: Wipe-out or assimilation?

  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Osweo View Post
    How was English speech brought to the west without some colonisation effort? Are you aware that 'Mercia' means 'the frontier folk', i.e. Angles who were pushing westwards and breathing right down the necks of the independent Welsh in the west?
    Yeah, there's many places in England that Argyll should know about with place names related to the name "Mercia".
    'Mersey' is the most obvious, but there's a river near the Solway Firth and a few other places dotted around which are called 'Merse' and similar.
    Many of the places I see it would indeed have been possible marches between Germanics and Celts. The one near the Solway Firth is interesting, to me it suggests that there must have been a sort of no-man's land between the Angles encrouching on the Cumbrian Lowlands and the Britons across the Firth.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pallantides View Post
    Lol such a bullshit movie, Stellan Skarsgård is cool though.
    Judging from that one clip, it's a horrible movie.

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    Quote Originally Posted by heathen_son View Post
    I'm with Argyll. No mentioning of Bede please. I suggest that eveything Bede wrote be stricken from the record. Our understanding of English history is better off without him.

    While we are at it, Julius Caesar didn't like the Druids, so we'll ignore him too

    Seriously though, in what way was he "anti-celtic"?
    Anything that doesn't say that Celts are the most pure race that have never mixed with Germanics, and that Celts haven't made everything this world uses, is anti-Celtic to Argyll.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Osweo View Post
    Absolute nonsense.

    Were the Irish Saints Columba and Aidan Celtic? Did Bede write of them with great praise? Yes and yes.

    You're thinking of his treatment of the Welsh, but this was based on doctrinal disputes, and the refusal of the Britons to evangelise the Angles, not on any daft notions of 'Celticness' or not.

    And Wulfhere wasn't even discussing Welsh-English relations in the post where he quoted Bede!

    Drivel.
    How was English speech brought to the west without some colonisation effort? Are you aware that 'Mercia' means 'the frontier folk', i.e. Angles who were pushing westwards and breathing right down the necks of the independent Welsh in the west?
    Anyway, I wished I had ticked the last box
    . It appears you left this part out.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jake Featherston View Post
    None of the above. Outisde of Essex, Anglo-Saxon genes do not predominate anywhere in Britain. The people of the Britsh Isles remain predominatly Celtic (outside of Orkney, where people are more Norse), irrespective of what they've been taught.
    What does 'predominate' mean?

    Given the reproductive advantages enjoyed by conquerors, and the converse disadvantages of the subdued, we can comfortably picture a situation where the Angles and Saxons had big broods of healthy well fed kids to replace them. Many of these in the first generation will have been of pure invading stock, as women WERE brought, but many also will have been half British on their mothers' side. Many British men joined the invaders, don't forget, and may well have married English women, the sisters and daughters of their new colleagues, especially if they were members of the British ruling class. The peasantry will have trundled along as ever, predominantly British at first, but the new social system the English brought was a lot 'flatter' than the old one of the Romanised elites (who were a bunch of oppressing twats, let's not forget!), and there will soon have occured a fusion of blood at this level too.

    A few generations pass, and we have hardly anyone who is pure British in the English-ruled areas. Where pockets remained, you got the various 'Waltons' that are found scattered across the land. The fact that such a settlement received such a name is enough to demonstrate that it was unusual.

    I wish I could see that slice of my (English) family tree for the generation around 500AD. If I could, though, I bet a big fat part of it will be Anglo-Saxon. A good quarter or fifth, perhaps.

    What is your evidence for telling me that it's less?
    Quote Originally Posted by Albion View Post
    Yeah, there's many places in England that Argyll should know about with place names related to the name "Mercia".
    'Mersey' is the most obvious, but there's a river near the Solway Firth and a few other places dotted around which are called 'Merse' and similar.
    Many of the places I see it would indeed have been possible marches between Germanics and Celts. The one near the Solway Firth is interesting, to me it suggests that there must have been a sort of no-man's land between the Angles encrouching on the Cumbrian Lowlands and the Britons across the Firth.
    Aye, we have the Merse up there. I wouldn't put it to such an early date, though. The Solway wasn't a border in Anglian times, you see. Consider the position of the Ruthwell Cross, to put that theory to bed with a minimum of fuss.
    That particular merse got its name in the Mediaeval period, when Scotland had crept so far south.
    If you are interested in looking for other Merses, bear in mind that the common noun merce often ended up March or Mark in later placenames. up
    Last edited by Osweo; 01-19-2012 at 10:20 PM.

  6. #26
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    After contacting Osweo, he helped discover where my family name came from, it is unique and comes from one area of England, nowhere else.
    He successfully used ordinance survey maps and found exactly where my family name comes from.
    He also found that the area before the Anglo Saxon invasion was named in a celtic form, this name the Anglo Saxon replaced with a Germanic meaning.
    Have you noticed that if you rearrange the letters in ‘illegal immigrants’, and add just a few more letters, it spells, ‘Go home you free-loading, benefit-grabbing, resource-sucking, baby-making, non-English-speaking ********* and take those other hairy-faced, sandal-wearing, bomb-making, camel-riding, goat-f*****g raghead c***s with you.?

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Osweo View Post
    What does 'predominate' mean?

    I think you know very well what it means, with all due respect, so moving right along.

    Quote Originally Posted by Osweo View Post
    Given the reproductive advantages enjoyed by conquerors, and the converse disadvantages of the subdued, we can comfortably picture a situation where the Angles and Saxons had big broods of healthy well fed kids to replace them.
    Yes, we can comfortably picture it, but we can't accurately picture it. History has shown, time and time again, that it is the indigenous folk who absorb the conquerors, rather than vice versa. There are exceptions to the rule (the Native Americans of the USA & Canada being a particularly salient example), but they remain exactly that ie., exceptions.

    In any event, my claims are based on a comprehensive study of the genetics of the British Isles (or perhaps it was just Britain herself?), that was published about a year or two ago. There was a big write up about it in the Guardian, and it made something of a splash at the time across the internet, and then, like so many of these things, it was forgotten by almost everyone. But not by me. I shouldn't be at all surprised to find that people were discussing that very study here at Apricity, when it was first released. They certainly were at The Phora, and doubtless other websites where such issues are of, shall we say, typical interest.
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  8. #28
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    Are you referring to Bryan Sykes?

    Comparing mtDNA and Y-chromosone patterns?

    I must profess that I have no knowledge of the science behind the genetic study, so if anyone can correct and clarify:

    In humans, mtDNA is only inherited maternally and is seperate from the Nuclear DNA. Nuclear DNA contains the fusion of the maternal and paternal genes, which encodes a greater proportion of the genome than mtDNA.

    That means that the influence of the Y-chromosone on the majority of the genome cannot be established in a study of mtDNA. And as on probability 50% of the DNA samples will contain no Y-chromosone evidence at all as females don't possess one, is that not going to present a biased skewing of the genetic makeup, as the timescales get shorter?

    Urgh, it makes my head hurt.
    Last edited by heathen_son; 01-21-2012 at 07:03 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Germanicus View Post
    After contacting Osweo, he helped discover where my family name came from, it is unique and comes from one area of England, nowhere else.
    He successfully used ordinance survey maps and found exactly where my family name comes from.
    He also found that the area before the Anglo Saxon invasion was named in a celtic form, this name the Anglo Saxon replaced with a Germanic meaning.
    My paternal ancestors would have ultimately been from Kent based on the surname and I can locate some of the surnames on my maternal side to particular villages.
    But sadly I haven't been able to figure out where in Kent they were from yet since it is very generic. Whilst it's good to be able to locate the origin of my surname it does raise more questions, namely what my Y-DNA would be (since Kent did preserve a lot of Celtic ancestry).
    Another negative is that I doubt it stems from one single common ancestor for all bearers of the surname, I've seen the Y-DNA results for other bearers and most are common strains of R1b but there's a few I1s and one other haplogroup for a single person.

    That the original bearers of the surname were given a locational name which must indicate that they had moved a significant way from Kent during Norman rule. I wouldn't associate such with peasants tied to the land.
    I want to trace it to Thanet really, I want to be a Jute.

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    Lightbulb Let us not forget...

    Let us not forget that the A.-S. and original British/'Welsh' dealt and warred with each other over a LONG, drawn out period of time, centuries, and you can count on it that attitudes to and actions toward interethnic breeding varied over the course of that time. The overall and general answer to the poll is that indigenous and 'pure' (and I don't mean this literally or strictly, because there is no such a thing with any group of given humans) British men were worn down through all of the wars and violence. The British women and children were enslaved and gradually assimilated/absorbed by the A.-S. In my mind/view this was how all ancient and prehistoric Germanic tribes operated whenever and where ever they went--it was a way of life for them for time immemorial.

    I haven't voted in the poll, because it doesn't have this specific option. The vast majority of my known ancestors were of either English or British/'Welsh' descent by the way--they're my FOLK, and I LOVE them...I hope the rest of you of similar/common ancestry do as well.

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