Anglo-Saxon invasion: Wipe-out or assimilation?

[Jackson]

Anglo-Saxons probably took the best land & left the native Brits on the worst.

Seems like they might have had a small population boom after expanding too. No evidence for this but you might expect it, given that (most) of the land could support a large number of people - And it's actually significantly better overall for farming than northern Germany/Denmark.

A continuous period of population growth from people that spoke Old English and were culturally so might partially explain the language and culture replacement. More children growing up with that language and culture each year.

[Graham]

Best land in full white & worst in full yellow, rough guidline.

[Jackson]

Best land in full white & worst in full yellow, rough guidline.

That seems to correspond quite well with the big red blob POBI identified.

[Žołnir]

Do you think the invading Anglo-Saxons wiped out / forced out the Britons to Wales and Cornwall, or do you think they assimilated them (mixed with them but replaced the culture), Wiped them out in most areas but not in others or that the Anglo-Saxons simply out-bred the Britons?

Discuss.

It simple and logical, they conquered locals and assimilated them.

[Albion]

Best land in full white & worst in full yellow, rough guidline.

True to an extent, some of the upland areas have interesting settlement histories though:

• The Peak district was struck by plague and was severly depopulated. Angles moved into it earlier than surrounding areas because of this, along the rivers.
• Yorkshire Dales were settled late by Angles from the Vale of York. It was a Celtic stronghold for a while under Elmet and Dunnoting. Danes latter reinforced the Angle settlers and are probably more important in its settlement than Angles.
• North Pennines were only ever lightly populated anyway. Angles moved in from Bernicia through the passes at Alston and the Tyne gap to reach the coastal plains and wide valleys of Cumbria.
• In Cumbria Angle settlement began before the Celtic kingdom of Rheged was absorbed by Northumbria. It was mainly in the valleys and along the coastal plains around the mountains. Angles coming from flat areas of Northern Germany probably weren't interested in mountains much and their agriculture wouldn't have been as suited to it. Much of the Germanic settlement of the Cumbrian mountains was by Norse.
• Devon is quite a fertile land and has a long growing season. Saxons moved in fairly good time but there remained a large Celtic minority as can be established from some laws written for them in Exeter. It can also be settled from two sides by sea, with a third by land and the final side is bounded by the Tamar as a boundary.
• North York moors were probably surrounded and the people assimilated.
• Welsh Marches - warfare with the Welsh limited settlement until a good boundary was established. Angles on the whole took the best lands, although Offa's dyke clearly left some good areas to the Welsh. The Marches were latter reinforced by the Normans moving in further English settlers. There's quite a lot of assimilated British alongside the Germanics.

[Mistel]

I watched this documentary. It was very interesting. There are another two parts which come before this one, too, but do not deal with the Anglo-Saxon invasion. There are different viewpoints put forward. One of these is that English language underwent changes making it different to other Germanic languages as a result of influence from Celtic languages and that probably it was not a wipe-out, but rather an assimilation.

[YOUTUBE]oQrWCEMO7mE[/YOUTUBE]

[Jackson]

I watched this documentary. It was very interesting. There are another two parts which come before this one, too, but do not deal with the Anglo-Saxon invasion. There are different viewpoints put forward. One of these is that English language underwent changes making it different to other Germanic languages as a result of influence from Celtic languages and that probably it was not a wipe-out, but rather an assimilation.

[YOUTUBE]oQrWCEMO7mE[/YOUTUBE]

Thanks for the link. Although i do not agree with his conclusions, Francis Pryor is one of the major advocates of an elite takeover, good idea to post it.

[Mistel]

Thanks for the link. Although i do not agree with his conclusions, Francis Pryor is one of the major advocates of an elite takeover, good idea to post it.

You're welcome! Actually, I tried to watch the BBC: Anglosaxons video on You Tube that was posted in this thread, but unfortunately it has been removed.

[Neon Knight]

I wonder how many Germanics came in pre-Roman times from the Belgium/Netherlands area compared to the post-Roman period? And was that a two-way Germano-Celtic migration? The classic story of A-S invaders being outnumbered 10-1 then conquering lowland Britain over a course of 200 years sounds pretty strange. What the invaders seem to have done is sparked of a cultural change which then gradually spread north-westwards until it ran out of steam. Historians tell us that established populations are very hard to shift and change, so I should think many Britons joined the revolution and simply 'became' Anglo-Saxons.

[Jackson]

I wonder how many Germanics came in pre-Roman times from the Belgium/Netherlands area compared to the post-Roman period? And was that a two-way Germano-Celtic migration? The classic story of A-S invaders being outnumbered 10-1 then conquering lowland Britain over a course of 200 years sounds pretty strange. What the invaders seem to have done is sparked of a cultural change which then gradually spread north-westwards until it ran out of steam. Historians tell us that established populations are very hard to shift and change, so I should think many Britons joined the revolution and simply 'became' Anglo-Saxons.

I expect that is true in many areas. Although genetics and archaeology is increasingly telling us that big migrations actually happen quite a lot. Also remember that if you have even a relatively small increase in birth rate among the new Anglo Saxon population, they could quickly increase several fold in size over some generations compared to those that have a lower birth-rate. Of course we don't know this happened, but given that there is an extremely sharp cut in the archaeology to pagan burial practices in much of the south, south-east and also a change in building, language and culture - And then a relatively rapid expansion to the west. The fact that this is visible in the POBI's 'big red cluster' (which could be indicative of a new population expanding rapidly across much of the lowlands, although may not be.) and then of course eastern English are closely related to Dutch and Danish.


I agree with you though, it does seem pretty unlikely to me that there was no movement across from the Benelux - That is basically the main arterial route into Britain from the continent, along with northern France. It's possible that if the Britons (and Belgics) in the south-east/east were already more similar then it would be difficult or impossible to give an exact idea of what sort of size of movement we are talking about. Perhaps like trying to differentiation the Danish Vikings from the Anglo-Saxons.

Established populations can change quite rapidly when there is cultural/linguistic/religious divide between them. I mean, although it's not the best example, many English people are moving away from towns here that have large immigrant populations, which makes the gap even wider. It doesn't even take a lot of violence.

People tend to stick together in family groups - If a number of important family groups were moving away, i doubt too many other's would want to stay - Although there would always be some that stayed.

On the genetics front, it doesn't matter too much what happened except for when you want to look at the event of population movement itself. If the Britons and Saxons were already quite similar genetically, and then they become culturally, linguistically, religiously Anglo-Saxons - I don't think it matters too much in terms of identity. After all the Angles and Saxons hadn't always been Angles and Saxons either.