Balt like people in antique southern Panonnia

[Ajeje Brazorf]

do you think that impacted their plotting? Btw, which samples you suggest to use for unmixed Slavs?

Sometimes it does, sometimes it doesn't.

For now I think it is Av2 from Szolad, but it could also be these guys.

Distance difference: ( AC - BC ) ↑
A: Croatian
B: Croatia_IA
C: ↴
-0.06072507	Russian_Orel
-0.06065460	Ukrainian_Zakarpattia
-0.06064324	Ukrainian_Chernihiv
-0.06057441	Ukrainian_Zhytomyr
-0.06043431	Ukrainian_Sumy
-0.06042764	Ukrainian_Lviv
-0.06042565	Ukrainian_Dnipro
-0.06035566	Russian_Smolensk
-0.06013559	Belarusian:Belarusian4
-0.06011699	Russian_Belgorod
-0.06009844	Russian_Voronez
-0.06002743	Russian_Kursk
-0.05999704	Ukrainian_Dnipro:EG600068
-0.05996894	Lithuanian_RA:LTG-21
-0.05995829	Ukrainian_Chernihiv:EG600055
-0.05994717	Russian_Ryazan:Rrzm-10
-0.05992752	Ukrainian_Zhytomyr:EG600028
-0.05990857	Belarusian
-0.05990503	Russian_Smolensk:RUS_Smol303
-0.05987697	HUN_IA_La_Tene_o:I18226
-0.05983700	Belarusian:Belarusian10
-0.05982004	Russian_Orel:russianOrjol56
-0.05980897	Ukrainian_Rivne
-0.05976066	Russian_Smolensk:RUS_Smol349
-0.05974448	Lithuanian_VA:LTG-514
-0.05973742	Ukrainian_Sumy:EG600079

When we compare Poles and Belarusians to Late Antiquity Lithuanians we see a shift toward Italy and the Balkans, but will this really have been the case?

Lithuania_Late_Antiquity,0.1340838,0.1267382,0.0965428,0.0989674,0.0510864,0.0401046,0.0141008,0.0170762,-0.0009,-0.0430078,-0.0057158,-0.0168452,0.030862,0.0370204,-0.0109932,0.0001856,0.0012778,-0.001191,0.0027402,0.0060528,-0.0038182,-0.0046494,0.0086518,-0.0164598,-0.000934

Distance difference: ( AC - BC ) ↑
A: Polish
B: Lithuania_Late_Antiquity
C: ↴
-0.06675190	Hungarian
-0.06666704	HUN_Sarmatian_Late_Transtisza
-0.06651156	Italian_Northeast:ALP346
-0.06645650	Italian_Northeast:ALP093
-0.06626712	Croatian
-0.06617553	Italian_Tuscany:NA20506
-0.06614042	Italian_Northeast
-0.06613375	HUN_MA_Szolad:SZ43
-0.06612784	Italian_Marche:MarABU050D
-0.06612766	Austrian
-0.06611893	Italian_Emilia
-0.06610538	SVK_Tes_Mlynany
-0.06608653	Swiss_Italian
-0.06604748	ITA_Palazzo_della_Cancelleria
-0.06604031	Italian_Piedmont
-0.06602974	French_Provence:S_34
-0.06601638	Italian_Umbria:PG12
-0.06596166	Italian_Lombardy:ALP288
-0.06594342	Swiss_Italian:Swiss_Italian3
-0.06593217	HUN_Sarmatian_Late_Transtisza:A181025
-0.06591343	Italian_Lombardy:ALP134
-0.06588448	MNE_LBA
-0.06588131	Italian_Tuscany:Tuscany93
-0.06588088	HUN_Avar_Late_South_Transdanubia
-0.06588088	HUN_Avar_Late_South_Transdanubia:I16759
-0.06587144	HRV_BA:I18748
-0.06587114	Italian_Tuscany:PG2012_647
-0.06585777	SVN_Emona
-0.06583719	Italian_Tuscany
-0.06583212	Italian_Piedmont:ItalyPiedmont43
-0.06582789	French_Provence:S_5
-0.06582741	Italian_Emilia:ALP67
-0.06580861	HUN_middle_Avar:SZK83
-0.06579966	HRV_Cetina_BA
-0.06579743	Italian_Northeast:ALP235
-0.06577954	SRB_IA
-0.06577954	SRB_IA:I16814
-0.06575744	AUT_Klosterneuburg:R10654
-0.06575485	Italian_Emilia:ALP342

Distance difference: ( AC - BC ) ↑
A: Belarusian
B: Lithuania_Late_Antiquity
C: ↴
-0.04865471	HUN_Avar_Late_South_Transdanubia
-0.04865471	HUN_Avar_Late_South_Transdanubia:I16759
-0.04838450	Montenegrin:Montenegro5
-0.04837364	Moldovan:44618757481C02
-0.04830742	Scythian_MDA:scy305
-0.04828708	Ukrainian_Sumy
-0.04823771	Ukrainian_Lviv
-0.04814133	Moldovan
-0.04810245	Scythian_MDA
-0.04809766	ITA_Proto-Villanovan
-0.04809766	ITA_Proto-Villanovan:RMPR1
-0.04805914	HUN_late_Avar:SZKT70
-0.04799671	Ukrainian_Zakarpattia:EG600004
-0.04798936	HUN_middle_Avar:KPM23
-0.04797671	Italian_Tuscany:PG2012_647
-0.04797361	HUN_late_Avar:SZK130
-0.04796876	Bulgarian:BulgarianF2
-0.04789848	HRV_Gardun
-0.04787054	DEU_MA_Alemannic_o1
-0.04787054	DEU_MA_Alemannic_o1:NIEcap3b
-0.04786944	GRC_Logkas_MBA:Log04
-0.04785975	Moldovan:44618758492C02
-0.04785966	Ukrainian_Zakarpattia
-0.04785378	HUN_early_Avar:MS45
-0.04782698	Albanian:AL82
-0.04782497	Romanian:G429
-0.04780853	HUN_Avar_Period
-0.04780853	HUN_Avar_Period:SZ1
-0.04778474	Serbian:Serbian_Serbia3
-0.04777846	HUN_middle_Avar:SZM255
-0.04777743	Romanian
-0.04776977	Moldovan:44618757582C01
-0.04776797	Turkish_Deliorman:Turkish_Razgrad2
-0.04776669	Serbian:729
-0.04772494	Italian_Abruzzo:ItalyAbruzzo14
-0.04772200	Hungarian:HungarianD1
-0.04771872	Moldovan:44618758061C01
-0.04771526	ITA_Chiusi_EMA:ETR010
-0.04770091	HUN_early_Avar:MS43
-0.04768565	Ukrainian_Zakarpattia:EG600035
-0.04767835	Italian_Tuscany:NA20506
-0.04767244	HUN_Avar_Late_Visonta
-0.04766858	HUN_middle_Avar:SZM259
-0.04766269	GRC_Logkas_MBA
-0.04765982	Serbian:Serbian_Serbia4

[vbnetkhio]

yeah, that sample is odd. Other one is way better candidate for a Slav. I wouldn't be modeling with more than 50% of it if it wasn't. do you know it's hg?
are there hgs released for all antique balkan samples from that paper?

the other one is:
https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Y88926/

you should search in this thread. I believe most of the Y-DNA results from this study were posted here.
https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....-high-mobility

[vbnetkhio]

do you think that impacted their plotting?

They do act weird in G25. I think there is some impact.
But there's another Baltic-like early Slavic sample, which is of higher quality:

HUN_early_Avar:CSB9,0.130897,0.126941,0.089,0.085272,0.032929,0.036814,0.0094,0.017768,-0.006136,-0.043554,0.00406,-0.016635,0.023191,0.034406,-0.014522,-0.010077,-0.011865,-0.0019,0.001885,0.000125,-0.009858,-0.00779,0.024896,-0.01446,0.005868

Btw, which samples you suggest to use for unmixed Slavs?

POL_Sandomierz_VA:VK494,0.126344,0.125926,0.085606,0.066215,0.051702,0.034861,0.017626,0.014307,0.003886,-0.017312,-0.006496,3e-04,0.016353,0.029314,-0.011672,-0.005171,-0.014081,0.004181,0.013073,0.002126,0.009483,0.005812,0.005669,-0.004699,0.001078
HUN_Avar_Szolad:Av2,0.135449,0.128972,0.080704,0.063954,0.034776,0.034025,0.006815,0.007615,0.009613,-0.02041,-0.001461,-0.005245,0.010852,0.026561,-0.014658,-0.002254,0.002347,0.001267,0.01081,-0.001751,0.001622,-0.002844,0.009613,-0.008314,0.005389

Sandomierz is from SE Poland, right next door to the Slavic homeland, and doesn't look shifted towards East Germanics at all.
AV2 is a very early Slavic arrival into Pannonia, and she doesn't look mixed with anything local.

The Krakauer Berg samples are also similar to these 2, and they don't look mixed with north Germans either. Rather with something south Euro. I think Krakauer Berg are the best proxy out of these, because they are also high quality.

I think these were the average early Slavs, and those Lithuanian-like were outliers.

South Slavs also picked up some 10-20% additional southern admixture while passing trough Hungary and Romania, and were Ukrainian to Rusyn-like.
It can be seen in AV1, the Byzantine outiler, and those misdated samples from Montenegro and Bosnia from the recent study.

[Ajeje Brazorf]

South Slavs also picked up some 10-20% additional southern admixture while passing trough Hungary and Romania, and were Ukrainian to Rusyn-like.
It can be seen in AV1, the Byzantine outiler, and those misdated samples from Montenegro and Bosnia from the recent study.

Also in this Asia Minor Slav, dated around 732 AD.

Distance to:	TUR_Marmara_Ilipinar_Byz3:I10430
0.02694257	Ukrainian_Zakarpattia
0.02920056	Ukrainian_Lviv
0.03162636	Sorb_Niederlausitz
0.03213918	Croatian
0.03217329	Slovakian
0.03259195	Polish
0.03406272	Hungarian
0.03488955	Russian_Belgorod
0.03510534	Slovenian
0.03537841	Czech
0.03576314	Moldovan_o
0.03600573	Ukrainian_Zhytomyr
0.03642751	Ukrainian_Rivne
0.03715409	Ukrainian_Chernihiv
0.03765813	Ukrainian_Sumy
0.03835016	Ukrainian_Dnipro
0.03905775	Bosnian

[smd555]

with K13 converted averages


Distance to: HRV_Osijek:R3657___AD_280

0.03786215 Russian_Tver-Yaroslavl
0.03884571 Russian_Ryazan
0.03914726 Russian_Pskov
0.04134088 Belarusian_Minsk
0.04174980 Russian_Southwest
0.04221890 Lithuanian_Aukštaitija
0.04372826 Russian_Smolensk
0.04429368 German_East_Prussia_Masuria
0.04461209 Estonian
0.04475842 Lithuanian_Žemaitija


Distance to: SRB_Viminacium:R6759___AD_150

0.05137090 Latvian
0.05406409 Lithuanian_Žemaitija
0.05639789 Russian_Pskov
0.05692230 Lithuanian_Aukštaitija
0.06086413 German_East_Prussia_Memelland
0.06110466 Estonian
0.06326707 Russian_Tver-Yaroslavl
0.06407308 Belarusian_Minsk
0.06768661 Russian_Smolensk
0.06866155 Russian_Ryazan

Distance to: SRB_Viminacium:R9673___AD_146

0.04055798 Russian_Pskov
0.04095903 Belarusian_Minsk
0.04118757 Lithuanian_Aukštaitija
0.04185239 German_East_Prussia_Memelland
0.04246390 German_East_Prussia_Masuria
0.04303851 Russian_Smolensk
0.04341625 Lithuanian_Žemaitija
0.04379295 Polish_Kujavia
0.04414358 Polish_Mazovia
0.04415367 Russian_Tver-Yaroslavl

Do you have K13 coordinates of those samples? And also K13 of the Baltic-shifted samples from Himera and Moravia_POH28 and POH13?

[Lucas]

They do act weird in G25. I think there is some impact.

POL_Sandomierz_VA:VK494,0.126344,0.125926,0.085606,0.066215,0.051702,0.034861,0.017626,0.014307,0.003886,-0.017312,-0.006496,3e-04,0.016353,0.029314,-0.011672,-0.005171,-0.014081,0.004181,0.013073,0.002126,0.009483,0.005812,0.005669,-0.004699,0.001078
HUN_Avar_Szolad:Av2,0.135449,0.128972,0.080704,0.063954,0.034776,0.034025,0.006815,0.007615,0.009613,-0.02041,-0.001461,-0.005245,0.010852,0.026561,-0.014658,-0.002254,0.002347,0.001267,0.01081,-0.001751,0.001622,-0.002844,0.009613,-0.008314,0.005389

Sandomierz is from SE Poland, right next door to the Slavic homeland, and doesn't look shifted towards East Germanics at all.
AV2 is a very early Slavic arrival into Pannonia, and she doesn't look mixed with anything local.

The Krakauer Berg samples are also similar to these 2, and they don't look mixed with north Germans either. Rather with something south Euro. I think Krakauer Berg are the best proxy out of these, because they are also high quality.

I think these were the average early Slavs, and those Lithuanian-like were outliers.

But Sandomierz is also very Lithuanian.

Target: POL_Sandomierz_VA:VK494
Distance: 2.7552% / 0.02755228
64.8 Lithuanian_VZ
14.2 Basque_French
10.0 Finnish_Southwest
9.8 Lithuanian_PZ
1.2 Mbuti

[smd555]

But Sandomierz is also very Lithuanian.

Target: POL_Sandomierz_VA:VK494
Distance: 2.7552% / 0.02755228
64.8 Lithuanian_VZ
14.2 Basque_French
10.0 Finnish_Southwest
9.8 Lithuanian_PZ
1.2 Mbuti

I must say that in fact there are some northern-shifted samples of modern Ukrainians. For example:

ukr1,33.57,46.2,5.41,5.07,3.84,1.62,0.42,0.63,2.79 ,0,0,0.45,0

- from Cherkaska oblast

ukr2,31.97,46.47,7.08,4.1,5.51,0,1.64,0,0,1,2.2,0, 0

- from Zhytomyrska/Dnipropetrovska oblast.

ukr3,32.61,51.63,7.66,3.55,0,0.61,1.12,0,0.54,1.89 ,0.39,0,0

- I did not manage to contact the owner of the kit, but the surname is most typical for northwestern Ukraine

ukr4,32.19,46.21,4.23,6.14,4.14,1.04,0,0.28,2.53,1 .37,1.26,0.61,0

-also I did not manage to contact the owner of the kit, but the surname is most typical for northwestern Ukraine

ukr5,33.14,47.52,7.04,4.27,3.87,1.37,0,1.34,0,0.37 ,0.14,0.94,0

- also I did not manage to contact the owner of the kit, the surname is typical for different regions of Ukraine.
And some others.

ukr3 is even more northern-shifted, than the samples of Krakuer Berg KRA011 and KRA007:

ukr3,32.61,51.63,7.66,3.55,0,0.61,1.12,0,0.54,1.89 ,0.39,0,0

KRA001,25.96,48.00,13.69,6.89,0,0,2.36,0.65,0.29,0 .90,0.97,0.29,0
KRA002,32.83,40.49,8.72,4.20,8.75,0.08,1.21,0,1.04 ,0.92,0.65,1.10,0
KRA003,37.41,43.66,9.37,1.83,2.01,0.45,0,0,1.08,1. 26,1.87,1.06,0
KRA004,33.97,49.45,10.27,0,0.33,1.90,0.77,0,1.06,0 .49,0.56,0.23,0.96
KRA005,29.61,46.01,11.93,6.25,1.70,0,0,0,0.82,0,2. 08,0,1.60
KRA006,25.65,44.48,12.02,5.98,5.26,1.24,3.24,0,1.0 1,0.52,0.34,0,0.26
KRA007,30.91,51.79,7.03,5.17,0,2.47,0.41,0,0,0.58, 0.86,0.77,0
KRA008,27.67,45.53,14.54,3.66,4.95,0.65,0,0.34,0,2 .39,0,0.27,0
KRA009,24.47,43.30,13.21,4.64,4.90,2.77,1.96,0,0,1 .29,2.18,1.04,0.24
KRA010,28.23,45.68,9.85,4.59,4.85,0.16,2.48,0.99,0 .16,1.23,0.51,0,1.28
KRA011,29.81,50.81,9.38,1.82,1.42,1.44,1.66,0,0,1. 05,1.22,1.39,0

Of cause I can compare only by K13, K15 and K36 because those Ukrainian samples are from Gedmatch. Thats why I also need K13 of the ancient samples from Pannonia, Moravia, and Himera.

[Jana]

I must say that in fact there are some northern-shifted samples of modern Ukrainians. For example:

- from Cherkaska oblast

- from Zhytomyrska/Dnipropetrovska oblast.

- I did not manage to contact the owner of the kit, but the surname is most typical for northwestern Ukraine

-also I did not manage to contact the owner of the kit, but the surname is most typical for northwestern Ukraine

- also I did not manage to contact the owner of the kit, the surname is typical for different regions of Ukraine.
And some others.

ukr3 is even more northern-shifted, than the samples of Krakuer Berg KRA011 and KRA007:





Of cause I can compare only by K13, K15 and K36 because those Ukrainian samples are from Gedmatch. Thats why I also need K13 of the ancient samples from Pannonia, Moravia, and Himera.

You can easily convert these samples from K36 to G25 form.

[smd555]

You can easily convert these samples from K36 to G25 form.

You mean this?: https://allelocator.ovh/K36horizontal.html

For ukr3:

ukr3,0.13305583255700018,0.12288408827799999,0.080 7878034046,0.07378027535700005,0.04267555165440001 ,0.02777068180192,0.00941342747100001,0.0141761157 5800003,0.00006932736600001209,-0.024693815450000073,-0.0030040245507799994,-0.009802925314000024,0.016296585008999984,0.026961 628270000447,-0.005902064174000134,0.00015411603699996357,-0.000687744808000055,-0.001056468664000133,0.0033529849429999856,0.00381 1599843,-0.0014478302080003572,-0.006626884425999962,0.007611980531999988,-0.005234707582999968,0.002855927529999913