Do you agree that the most distinct feature of Europeans is the high prevalence of light hair/eyes?

[Damião de Góis]

Roots are roots. I can't find a single photo online of Mats Haakenstad which XenophobicPrussian used as a example for true dark blond as dark has Caetano in that photo I sent to Östsvensk. He can look brownish in some photos but never pure Fischer #8 like Caetano. Also consider that Haakenstad might not be quite as consistently sun enriched as Caetano.

True blond hair does not look darker than about this:

Right, you have now convinced me that southern european blondes are actually not blonde at all, but brown haired people who have their hair bleached by the southern european sun.

Dean Saunders actually started to become blondish (because of the strong portuguese sun) when he played for Benfica.

So this is actually brown hair, but only appears blonde because of the portuguese sun:

[Septentrion]

That depends. Do even blond and blue-eyed Jews like Grant Shapps and Michael Bolton not pass as Europeans to you?



No it isn't, unless you count light brown hair as "dark". And most Europeans have light eyes too - even parts of Southern Europe like Southern France, Northern Italy, Slovenia and Croatia are circa 40% light-eyed, never mind the bulk of the continent further north. As I hypothesised in the OP, it is not the mere existence of light hair and eyes but their high prevalence that makes Europe distinctive.



Yes and no. More than a few darker Europeans could at least pass reasonably well as Jews or West Asians, especially but by no means exclusively in SE Europe.



I would say in response to that the distinctive European trait in that respect is what some environmentalists disparagingly call "industrialism", or rather the search to move away from nature and live lives which revolve strongly around machinery and technology. The management of said societies can be anything from free-market capitalist to communist with all the different shades in between.



Sort of. But Jews and NE Asians are said to have even higher IQs than Europeans, and along with that I'd argue their cultures tend to value education and intellect more than many European cultures and individuals do. Furthermore, not all of Europe has been so prolific in said "search for knowledge" - sorry to say, but not all of the continent has been like Western Europe (especially NW Europe) by any means.

Enough with your ignorance! OP! Grant Shapps and Michael Bolton are not pure Jews (Original Hebrews). They are descendants of European Jews, meaning they have European blood mixed in with MENA blood. Jews have mixed in with Europeans for centuries. The original Hebrews were not only MENAs, but belonged to the Orientalid branches especially the Arabid one. Do you see the difference now?
I see your point when it comes to European pigmentation. Nevertheless, the majority of Europeans are neither clearly blond ( as Milkaner loves it) nor clearly ginger. Most have various degrees of brown hair. The only exceptions are Scandinavians and northern Balts who are for the most part some type of blond shade. Outside of Northern Europe (British Islands, Scandinavia and Baltic States), it is only in very few countries that blue is the most common eye colour. You can’t lie to me, you should know better. It is not the case in Austria, Belgium, France, Germany, Luxembourg, Switzerland, Hungary, the Czech Republic, Slovakia etc…. Only in the Netherlands and Poland. Obviously when we combine the light eyes colours ( blue, green, gray) together then it’ll make up the majority ( 50% or more) of countries in a large part of Europe. In Belgium, it’s approximately 60% and in Germany about 70%. However the single most common eye colour is brown especially lighter brown in many lands.

[Melkiirs]

Oh, please dude. Stop your ranting against Southern European blondness. There are plenty of Southern Europeans who are blonder-haired than that fellow you purposely posted. It is just in a Southern context, he’d classed blond as well. In Northern and North-West, it is more of light brown hair. For practical purposes, light brown hair is classified as light hair too. As it is the darkest grade for light hair. A «*near blond*» still blond. Nations such as Portugal, Spain, Italy, Albania, Serbia, Bulgaria, Greece, Macedonia are predominantly dark brown-haired populations with brown to hazel eyes and a light olive complexions. So don’t expect to see a great number of light or medium blond or blondes walking around. Blondes are already a minority in this part of Europe ( I’m talking about natural blonds or blondes).
I have personally met Portuguese folks blonde as her:
https://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/0...e69286ef57.jpg
Portuguese of that pigmentation are probably vestiges of Ancient Celtic or Germanic tribes and people who settled mostly in the north.
This is why I came hard against you, when you were trying to liken Southern Europeans to mere MENAs. They are not MENAs. You are probably less European in origin than they are.

I never said Southern Europeans are like MENAs, just that they can overlap to a degree in certain aspects of pigmentation. Discussing this is my hobby as it appears to also be for you. There is no overarching agenda on my part like you seem to suspect. I cluster towards the northern end of Southern Europe myself, closest to Romanians. I have nothing against Southern Europeans. There are very blond Southern Europeans but cases like Rui Caetano are more typical. There can be confusion between typical blond and true blond. The descriptions of Tamagnini's colleagues have to be taken into context of average hair color. Even E. Sunderland was curious about how differences in average hair color in regions of UK could impact perception by observers. There is much more variation in average hair color between Germans (Eugen Fischer who created the Fischer scale was German) and typical Southern Europeans than within the UK. In South Europe overall the clear majority of hair in adults is dark enough to confused with black (Fischer #4). In Central Europe most hair is at least chestnut to dark brown (Fischer #5-7) if not lighter. Does this help to clarify?

[Melkiirs]

Enough with your ignorance! OP! Grant Shapps and Michael Bolton are not pure Jews (Original Hebrews). They are descendants of European Jews, meaning they have European blood mixed in with MENA blood. Jews have mixed in with Europeans for centuries. The original Hebrews were not only MENAs, but belonged to the Orientalid branches especially the Arabid one. Do you see the difference now?
I see your point when it comes to European pigmentation. Nevertheless, the majority of Europeans are neither clearly blond ( as Milkaner loves it) nor clearly ginger. Most have various degrees of brown hair. The only exceptions are Scandinavians and northern Balts who are for the most part some type of blond shade. Outside of Northern Europe (British Islands, Scandinavia and Baltic States), it is only in very few countries that blue is the most common eye colour. You can’t lie to me, you should know better. It is not the case in Austria, Belgium, France, Germany, Luxembourg, Switzerland, Hungary, the Czech Republic, Slovakia etc…. Only in the Netherlands and Poland. Obviously when we combine the light eyes colours ( blue, green, gray) together then it’ll make up the majority ( 50% or more) of countries in a large part of Europe. In Belgium, it’s approximately 60% and in Germany about 70%. However the single most common eye colour is brown especially lighter brown in many lands.

I never said most European are universally blond. Most Southern Europeans will consider Swedes as overwhelmingly blond but the Swedes themselves deem the dominant shade as rather råttfärgat. Even in the blondest European countries Fischer #9-26 is not much more than about 50% of young adults. For Bryn's largest survey of Norwegian recruits (https://books.google.com/books?id=qu...NAQ6AF6BAgEEAI) it was 48.6% Fischer #9-26. I am not trying to make Europeans blonder then reality. You are being hypocritical because you claimed that I misrepresented you before when you are obviously intentionally doing the same now:

[QUOTE=Septentrion;7916830]

You need to be corrected Yankee. Due to the fact that you seem to twist or distort my statements.

What is the issue here?

[Septentrion]

I never said Southern Europeans are like MENAs, just that they can overlap to a degree in certain aspects of pigmentation. Discussing this is my hobby as it appears to also be for you. There is no overarching agenda on my part like you seem to suspect. I cluster towards the northern end of Southern Europe myself, closest to Romanians. I have nothing against Southern Europeans. There are very blond Southern Europeans but cases like Rui Caetano are more typical. There can be confusion between typical blond and true blond. The descriptions of Tamagnini's colleagues have to be taken into context of average hair color. Even E. Sunderland was curious about how differences in average hair color in regions of UK could impact perception by observers. There is much more variation in average hair color between Germans (Eugen Fischer who created the Fischer scale was German) and typical Southern Europeans than within the UK. In South Europe overall the clear majority of hair in adults is dark enough to confused with black (Fischer #4). In Central Europe most hair is at least chestnut to dark brown (Fischer #5-7) if not lighter. Does this help to clarify?

There is a reason why, I said that Southern Europeans are predominantly dark brown - haired and not black - haired. There is a difference. You have been crying so much trying to separate hair that is "near blond" to that which isn't. Now you are putting dark brown together with black hair? There is a difference too. You might not be aware of it, but it's there. It's the MENAs which are predominantly black-haired. Southern Euros have medium to large minorities of black-haired people but aren't predominantly black-haired.

Black hair in the following some Southern European populations:
1) Italy = 31%
2) Spain = 23%
3) Greece = 21%
4) Portugal = 19%

[Melkiirs]

Right, you have now convinced me that southern european blondes are actually not blonde at all, but brown haired people who have their hair bleached by the southern european sun.

Dean Saunders actually started to become blondish (because of the strong portuguese sun) when he played for Benfica.

So this is actually brown hair, but only appears blonde because of the portuguese sun:

Perhaps limiting determinations to pubes is better. Other than pubic hair being notably more likely to be reddish in correlation with facial hair pubic hair and scalp hair are fairly similar in distribution based on Swedish standards. Pubes unlike scalp hair are usually sheltered from the sun.

This is based on the Linders & Lungborg study of Swedish recruits:

https://books.google.com/books?id=iS...tliche&f=false

[Melkiirs]

There is a reason why, I said that Southern Europeans are predominantly dark brown - haired and not black - haired. There is a difference. You have been crying so much trying to separate hair that is "near blond" to that which isn't. Now you are putting dark brown together with black hair? There is a difference too. You might not be aware of it, but it's there. It's the MENAs which are predominantly black-haired. Southern Euros have large minorities of black-haired people but aren't predominantly black-haired.

Correct. Deep brunet near black (Fischer #4) is typical of Southern Europe while true blue-black #27 is more typical of most non-Europeans. There are exceptions of course like Turks who are more commonly deep brownish #4 than #27. Fischer #4 is near black in the same sense #8 is near blond. Neither are truly black nor blond. Dark brown #5 cannot be mistaken for black hair.

See here:


Here is Wagenseil’s Fischer scale data for Turks from various regions which I already shared before:

https://www.jstor.org/stable/25749062

Less than 5% was blue-black #27 and over 60% matched #4 closely. The most common hair color among Turks and much of Southern Europeans is comparable, both near black but not true black. There is an overlap between Southern Europeans and some MENAs in certain aspects of pigmentation. That is as far as I have ever suggested.

[Septentrion]

I never said Southern Europeans are like MENAs, just that they can overlap to a degree in certain aspects of pigmentation. Discussing this is my hobby as it appears to also be for you. There is no overarching agenda on my part like you seem to suspect. I cluster towards the northern end of Southern Europe myself, closest to Romanians. I have nothing against Southern Europeans. There are very blond Southern Europeans but cases like Rui Caetano are more typical. There can be confusion between typical blond and true blond. The descriptions of Tamagnini's colleagues have to be taken into context of average hair color. Even E. Sunderland was curious about how differences in average hair color in regions of UK could impact perception by observers. There is much more variation in average hair color between Germans (Eugen Fischer who created the Fischer scale was German) and typical Southern Europeans than within the UK. In South Europe overall the clear majority of hair in adults is dark enough to confused with black (Fischer #4). In Central Europe most hair is at least chestnut to dark brown (Fischer #5-7) if not lighter. Does this help to clarify?

Germany is a very bad example to use for Central Europe. Germany is in North-Central Europe. Thus portrays Northern and Central European pigmentation. It'd be better to use Switzerland, Austria, Switzerland, the Czech Republic and Slovakia.

[Melkiirs]

Germany is a very bad example to use for Central Europe. Germany is in North-Central Europe. Thus portrays Northern and Central European pigmentation. It'd be better to use Switzerland, Austria, Switzerland, the Czech Republic and Slovakia.

For my purposes that matters not as Central or Northern Europeans are both normally at least mostly Fischer #5+. Otto Schlaginhaufen found only in parts of Ticino (average 47.33% at least slightly darker than Fischer #5) and Italian speaking parts of Grisons could deep brunet to black hair be in the majority among recruits. Having a majority hair color nearing black (although obviously distinguishable in decent lighting) contrasts Southern Europe from Central Europe. This is not surprising because Ernst Frizzi noticed that swarthy individuals were significantly more represented in Italian speaking versus German speaking residents of the former County of Tirol. Northern Italians are Southern Europeans and this shows in their pigmentation. Extremely dark and exotic MENA looking people can be found in Northern Italy (as my Italian friend Übermensch confirms) that may not exist in German populations. So the difference is about full range of variation and not just average pigmentation. In any case determinations of blondness involve to some degree comparing to average hair color, which is my overall point.

The appearances of types like Davide Brivio mark the transition from Southern Germanics to Italians:

Spoiler!

[Septentrion]

For my purposes that matters not as Central or Northern Europeans are both normally at least mostly Fischer #5+. Otto Schlaginhaufen found only in parts of Ticino (average 47.33% at least slightly darker than Fischer #5) and Italian speaking parts of Grisons could deep brunet to black hair be in the majority among recruits. Having a majority hair color nearing black (although obviously distinguishable in decent lighting) contrasts Southern Europe from Central Europe. This is not surprising because Ernst Frizzi noticed that swarthy individuals were significantly more represented in Italian speaking versus German speaking residents of the former County of Tirol. Northern Italians are Southern Europeans and this shows in their pigmentation. Extremely dark and exotic MENA looking people can be found in Northern Italy (as my Italian friend Übermensch confirms) that may not exist in German populations. So the difference is about full range of variation and not just average pigmentation. In any case determinations of blondness involve to some degree comparing to average hair color, which is my overall point.

The appearances of types like Davide Brivio mark the transition from Southern Germanics to Italians:

Spoiler!

I didn’t deny the greater presence of swarthy individuals in Southern Europe at all. I’m well aware of them. I just didn’t buy you affiliating Southern Euros to MENAs. This is because I well know that there’s a difference because I have been in both places numerous times. Central Europe for the most part is transitional since people are neither too light, nor too dark on average. This is why, I said that Germany was the worst example. For in Northern Germany ( Schleswig-Holstein, Lower Saxony, Hamburg, Bremen, Mecklenburg-Vorpommern areas) approximately 43% are blond-haired ( of various shades not only light blondes!Ok!) and as much as 75% are light-eyed (46% blue-eyed alone!) and skin complexion is pretty fair. This is Northern Europe not Central Europe. Our European continent is diverse in its own way, blondness as a rule decrease progressively most of the time from north to south, there are exceptions to this, I don’t have the time to name them. Even within Southern Europe, this continues for example from northern regions of Italy to its southern ones, blondness decreases. Nevertheless it is still Europe, those Southern Europeans still distinguish themselves from non-European Caucasoid populations. Only when one is unfamiliar with the various Europeans that they make that mistake.