Tribal composition of my Old-German and my Slavic ancestry

[rothaer]

Based on a map of West Slavs per abt. 800 - 950 AD



and based on my 64 ancestors six generations back, sometimes projected to where they some generations before will have hailed from, I realised that I almost entirely hail from areas that were once at least partly Slavic settled, see the 64 violet dots.



The respective proportions of the historical Old-German and historical Slavic contributions per abt. 800 - 950 AD within each dot will have some uncertainty. But with weighted and extrapolated estimates I think that I with some confidence can make an educated guess as for the proportions of the tribal ancestry within the Old-German and the Slavic ancestry proportions.

This said, my Old-German ancestry distributes on historical tribes like this:

Saxons 43,2%
Thuringians 34,3%
Franconians 15,6%
Swabians 6,9%
Old-Germans 100,0%

My Slavic ancestry distributes on the following historical Slavic main tribal groups, where I followed the assessment from the map above that Masurs and Slavic Silesians are subgroups of Poles.

Polabians 12,1%
Pomoranians 19,6%
Poles 48,2%
Sorbs 17,1%
Czechs 3,0%
Slavs 100,0%

Thoughts?

[rothaer]

The respective determination for rothaer_wife2 is comparably simple:

Saxons 100%

Polabians 100%

[Mortimer]

Is there really a clear line between slavic and german? What is the difference suppossed to be?

[rothaer]

Is there really a clear line between slavic and german? What is the difference suppossed to be?

Here I did not deal with that differentiation but with the assignments within each group separately.

The genetic differentiation between the two different genetic sources of (proto) Slavic and (proto) Germanic is shown in my signature.

Ethnic Germans and ethnic Slavs are both a mixture although in different proportions. Their differences are visible in a PCA, f. i. the known North Europe PCA.

[Mortimer]

Here I did not deal with that differentiation but with the assignments within each group separately.

The genetic differentiation between the two different genetic sources of Slavic and Germanics is shown in my signature.

Ethnic Germans and ethnic Slavs are both a mixture although in different proportions.

Do you have a idea when the slavic entered the german gene pool or your family tree? Was there EVER a time where you guys have been 100% germanic? Or never?

[Jana]

Wow, great thread. Percentages are in real Aspie fashion Could you tell us how did you come to such precise breakdown?

[rothaer]

Wow, great thread. Percentages are in real Aspie fashion Could you tell us how did you come to such precise breakdown?

I sat for some hours with an excel table and calculatorily carried out a number of considered assessments like: Indigenous to Lower Silesia Germans are half local Slavic and half Franconian/Thuringian. Or: Indigenous Germans South of the Harz are 1/3 Slavic (Sorbs) and 2/3 Old-Germans (Thuringians). Etc.

But after I restricted my statement to the internal Slavic and the internal Old-German groups these proportions just became of a small importance for the results. More important was the determination of which Slavic group was indigenous to the area of the ancestor und which Old-German tribes settled there. The latter is mentioned in literature and is also shown by the local German dialects as an outcome of all that. It may become tricky where there are more than one Old-German tribe participating and then how were the proportions. I may miss some minority participants like Flamands and Lower Franks.

[rothaer]

Do you have a idea when the slavic entered the german gene pool or your family tree?

Yes, with the emergence of the various so called German new tribes (deutsche Neustämme) that emerged on the area that was subject to the German eastward expansion (deutsche Ostsiedlung), i. e. Mecklenburgians, Brandenburgians, Upper Saxons, Silesians, Pomeranians etc. and when pre-existing Germanic tribes became extented like Bavarians and Thuringians. That was a process that went on over centuries at different times in different regions. It went on from about 1200 AD till 1945 AD in some regionas like Masuria and Upper Silesia and thinking of the Sorbs it goes on even today. If you know the exact region it can be assessed when it was. As you can see I've ancestry from various regions so there can bot be one answer for all, but I'm pretty sure that I will have all from abt. 1200 till abt. 1800 with most having been Germanised before 1400/1500.

Was there EVER a time where you guys have been 100% germanic? Or never?

It depends on what you mean with "you guys" and what you mean with "Germanic".

I consider all Germanics per 50 BCE beeing essentially homogenously and thus representing what is originally Germanic genetically. From that time on Germanics began to expanded into former Celtic areas and assimilate Celts and thus changing their genetics somewhat. But only in the expansion areas. In areas that were Germanic at abt. 50 BCE and that were not affected by the Slavic expansion the indigenous Germans also today are close to 100% Germanic in the sense of Germanics per 50 BCE.

[Peterski]

Very interesting! So your main tribal group are Poles, followed closely by Saxons.

[rothaer]

Very interesting! So your main tribal group are Poles, followed closely by Saxons.

Yes.

As for the Saxons I was essentially aware because of the Low German speaking areas in the east.

Regarding tribal Poles (not Polanes but as a reasonable supergroup) I was not aware of the comparably high proportion. The discrepancy between expectation before and after going into detail was caused mainly by these aspects:

- assigning (legitimately imo) also Lower Silesian Slavs to the Polish super group.
- realising that the Central part of Eastern Brandenburg (East of the Oder river) was also to be assigned to Poles tribally. I before had some form of non-Polish Wends in mind and I still wonder wether they not were called Wends, but, however, I go with the linguistic assignment.
- the fact that my Masurian context folks (later Germanised) calculatory have a double weight within my Slavic proportion as they were approximately 100% Slavic in ancestry and not 50% like my Eastern Germans from other areas (South of the Harz I calculated 1/3 Slavic in line with what indigenous to there folks get).