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Thread: The fall of China? Don’t bet on it

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    Default The fall of China? Don’t bet on it

    https://www.spiked-online.com/2023/0...ont-bet-on-it/



    Gloomy predictions of China’s imminent economic collapse say far more about the West than they do about China.

    Fifty years ago, some radical leftist groups were renowned for always predicting the imminent collapse of Western capitalism. Yet as is now clear, capitalism survived these cataclysmic auguries. Over the past decade, mainstream commentators have been making similar claims about the Chinese party-state economic system. Yet, so far, China has also survived.

    Talk of China being on the verge of financial and economic ruin was once an idiosyncratic view. For instance, Gordon Chang’s The Coming Collapse of China, published in 2001, predicted that China would fall apart by 2011. At the end of 2011, Chang admitted in Foreign Policy magazine that his prediction was wrong, but said it was off by ‘only a year’, and that China’s collapse would definitely happen in 2012. As a result, Chang made the magazine’s annual list of ‘10 worst predictions of the year’ twice in a row.

    Throughout the 2010s, this trickle of foreboding turned into a flood. George Magnus, an eminent Oxford-based economist, has been a consistent China doomer. He opened the decade with his 2010 book, Uprising: Will Emerging Markets Shape or Shake the World Economy?. One reviewer described it as ‘a useful corrective to some of the more breathless and overenthusiastic tracts on China’s inevitable path to world domination’. Then, in 2018, Magnus released Red Flags: Why Xi’s China Is in Jeopardy, which was said to offer ‘a penetrating account of the threats to China’s continued economic rise’.

    China’s uneven post-Covid recovery has brought Western gloom about China’s economic prospects to new heights this year. Here’s a flavour of some of the many recent downbeat headlines: ‘China facing “downward spiral” as property crisis deepens’ (the Telegraph); ‘China’s slumping economy signals the end of a high-growth era’ ( City AM); and ‘China’s unprecedented economic crisis worries the rest of the world’ ( Le Monde).

    These stories draw on real economic problems. China slipped into price deflation in July, as growth in retail sales and industrial output slowed. And just this week, Country Garden, a major property developer, missed payments on some of its debt. To cap all this off, Beijing announced last month that it will stop publishing youth-unemployment figures, after reporting record highs – a sign that the authorities are keen to bury bad economic news.

    So, might the dire expectations from Western economists finally come true this time? Certainly, economic growth has slowed substantially since those heady days during the 1990s and 2000s, of growth rates of more than 10 per cent per annum. But since China has survived all the previous portents of ruination, it would probably be wise not to hold our breath.

    The current slowdown is, to some extent, inevitable. No expanding economy could sustain such high compound growth rates forever – at least without some sort of slump. Still, China’s current economic troubles need to be put into a wider context.

    It is revealing to look at what Western experts were predicting about Chinese growth 20 years ago. Dreaming With BRICs: The Path to 2050, released in 2003, was a highly celebrated piece of analysis produced by Goldman Sachs. It shook up the complacent view, widely held at the time, that the Western economies would forever dominate the world. The study suggested that China would soon have a larger economy than Germany and Japan, and it could overtake the United States as the world’s No1 economy by about 2040. The Goldman Sachs report acknowledged that these predictions were ‘startling’ and ‘dramatic’. Yet what is most striking from today’s vantage point is that China’s actual growth rates have exceeded those optimistic predictions. What’s more, Goldman Sachs predicted that Chinese annual growth would slow to 4.6 per cent between 2020 and 2025, and 4.1 per cent between 2025 and 2030. Those projections are pretty much in line with the forecasts made by the International Monetary Fund (IMF) this July. Indeed, although the IMF warns about China’s loss of momentum, it still anticipates Chinese output growing by 5.2 per cent this year and 4.5 per cent next year.

    Do these kinds of figures really warrant all the talk of a ‘slump’, a ‘downward spiral’ or an ‘unprecedented crisis’? On the contrary, these are the sort of growth levels that the governments of developed countries no longer even aspire to. The advanced economies are projected to grow by 1.5 per cent this year, falling to 1.4 per cent next year.

    China’s secular slowdown is now being reinforced by some genuine additional challenges. For a start, Beijing’s three years of harsh Covid lockdowns were an economic and social disaster. Given how the Western economies have struggled to recover from their own lockdowns, which were far less brutal and were abandoned much earlier, it was always fanciful to think that China’s recovery from its Zero Covid policy would be smooth and steady.

    Meanwhile, geopolitical tensions, especially with the US, are also restraining China’s economy. In particular, US bans on exports and investments in three advanced technology sectors – semiconductors, AI and quantum computing – are bound to take a toll on China’s economic development, at least in the short term. Western efforts at ‘reshoring’ its supply chains – or, more accurately, diversifying its overseas production capabilities to friendly foreign countries – could also soften Chinese growth. Foreign investment inflows are also set to decline.


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    Fifty years ago, some radical leftist groups were renowned for always predicting the imminent collapse of Western capitalism. Yet as is now clear, capitalism survived these cataclysmic auguries. Over the past decade, mainstream commentators have been making similar claims about the Chinese party-state economic system. Yet, so far, China has also survived.

    Talk of China being on the verge of financial and economic ruin was once an idiosyncratic view. For instance, Gordon Chang’s The Coming Collapse of China, published in 2001, predicted that China would fall apart by 2011. At the end of 2011, Chang admitted in Foreign Policy magazine that his prediction was wrong, but said it was off by ‘only a year’, and that China’s collapse would definitely happen in 2012. As a result, Chang made the magazine’s annual list of ‘10 worst predictions of the year’ twice in a row.

    Throughout the 2010s, this trickle of foreboding turned into a flood. George Magnus, an eminent Oxford-based economist, has been a consistent China doomer. He opened the decade with his 2010 book, Uprising: Will Emerging Markets Shape or Shake the World Economy?. One reviewer described it as ‘a useful corrective to some of the more breathless and overenthusiastic tracts on China’s inevitable path to world domination’. Then, in 2018, Magnus released Red Flags: Why Xi’s China Is in Jeopardy, which was said to offer ‘a penetrating account of the threats to China’s continued economic rise’.

    China’s uneven post-Covid recovery has brought Western gloom about China’s economic prospects to new heights this year. Here’s a flavour of some of the many recent downbeat headlines: ‘China facing “downward spiral” as property crisis deepens’ (the Telegraph); ‘China’s slumping economy signals the end of a high-growth era’ ( City AM); and ‘China’s unprecedented economic crisis worries the rest of the world’ ( Le Monde).

    These stories draw on real economic problems. China slipped into price deflation in July, as growth in retail sales and industrial output slowed. And just this week, Country Garden, a major property developer, missed payments on some of its debt. To cap all this off, Beijing announced last month that it will stop publishing youth-unemployment figures, after reporting record highs – a sign that the authorities are keen to bury bad economic news.

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    So, might the dire expectations from Western economists finally come true this time? Certainly, economic growth has slowed substantially since those heady days during the 1990s and 2000s, of growth rates of more than 10 per cent per annum. But since China has survived all the previous portents of ruination, it would probably be wise not to hold our breath.

    The current slowdown is, to some extent, inevitable. No expanding economy could sustain such high compound growth rates forever – at least without some sort of slump. Still, China’s current economic troubles need to be put into a wider context.

    It is revealing to look at what Western experts were predicting about Chinese growth 20 years ago. Dreaming With BRICs: The Path to 2050, released in 2003, was a highly celebrated piece of analysis produced by Goldman Sachs. It shook up the complacent view, widely held at the time, that the Western economies would forever dominate the world. The study suggested that China would soon have a larger economy than Germany and Japan, and it could overtake the United States as the world’s No1 economy by about 2040. The Goldman Sachs report acknowledged that these predictions were ‘startling’ and ‘dramatic’. Yet what is most striking from today’s vantage point is that China’s actual growth rates have exceeded those optimistic predictions. What’s more, Goldman Sachs predicted that Chinese annual growth would slow to 4.6 per cent between 2020 and 2025, and 4.1 per cent between 2025 and 2030. Those projections are pretty much in line with the forecasts made by the International Monetary Fund (IMF) this July. Indeed, although the IMF warns about China’s loss of momentum, it still anticipates Chinese output growing by 5.2 per cent this year and 4.5 per cent next year.

    Do these kinds of figures really warrant all the talk of a ‘slump’, a ‘downward spiral’ or an ‘unprecedented crisis’? On the contrary, these are the sort of growth levels that the governments of developed countries no longer even aspire to. The advanced economies are projected to grow by 1.5 per cent this year, falling to 1.4 per cent next year.

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    China’s secular slowdown is now being reinforced by some genuine additional challenges. For a start, Beijing’s three years of harsh Covid lockdowns were an economic and social disaster. Given how the Western economies have struggled to recover from their own lockdowns, which were far less brutal and were abandoned much earlier, it was always fanciful to think that China’s recovery from its Zero Covid policy would be smooth and steady.

    Meanwhile, geopolitical tensions, especially with the US, are also restraining China’s economy. In particular, US bans on exports and investments in three advanced technology sectors – semiconductors, AI and quantum computing – are bound to take a toll on China’s economic development, at least in the short term. Western efforts at ‘reshoring’ its supply chains – or, more accurately, diversifying its overseas production capabilities to friendly foreign countries – could also soften Chinese growth. Foreign investment inflows are also set to decline.

    It is also true that China’s property sector is in deep trouble. It has borrowed far too much money and no doubt more defaults and insolvencies are likely. One firm alone – the infamous Evergrande – has racked up liabilities worth £290 billion. These problems are also exacerbating local governments’ financial frailties, as many local authorities rely on land sales to developers to keep themselves going. This means the contribution to growth from property development and local-government investments is unlikely to match the levels it did in the 2010s.

    As a result of all this, it is highly probable that China will experience a financial crash and / or a recession at some point over the next few years. The instabilities that are building up are an inevitable consequence of growth under capitalism, even in an authoritarian party-state system (though Beijing will no doubt do its utmost to cover much of this up).

    However, these setbacks alone cannot justify the current levels Western doom-mongering. None of this adds up to a ‘systemic crisis’ or to the end of Chinese development.

    Yes, China is undoubtedly encountering rocky economic times. But in its favour, it is far more resilient than many other mature industrialised countries. People rightly question just how resilient Western economies will prove to be when the next shock hits. Few if any mature nations can fall back on the same cushion of reserves as China can.


    china stock markets remain volatile amid economy fears.

    China’s resilience to disruptions is of a different order to the West primarily because of the strength of its production fundamentals. Despite the West’s talk of reshoring and deglobalisation, China is still unquestionably the world’s manufacturing superpower, responsible for nearly 29 per cent of global manufacturing output. It produces about the same output as the next three biggest manufacturing nations – the US, Japan and Germany – combined.

    Nor is China just producing low-quality, low-tech goods. It currently leads the world in the production of electric vehicles, electric car batteries, 5G telecommunications equipment, commercial drones, Internet of Things devices, mobile payments and solar cells. It is also telling, given the Western obsession with Net Zero, that China has been the world’s largest and fastest-growing producer of renewable energy for more than a decade.

    While it is certainly true that China has become far more indebted over the past decade, the reasons for this also point to its economy’s comparative resilience. Advanced countries like the US and the UK have mainly got themselves into debt because they have been subsidising consumption – through bailouts, fiscal stimulus, loose monetary policy, etc. This has helped to sustain existing levels of economic activity, but it has left little legacy for the future. In contrast, most of China’s debt comes from financing investment. While Western infrastructure has crumbled as debt has risen, China’s debts have largely financed new and modern assets, from houses and roads to bridges, airports and seaports to high-speed railways.

    China is often criticised for making ‘unproductive’ investments. It is true that many of its new houses, apartments and even cities may be empty or underutilised today. But these at least provide a solid physical foundation for future growth. Having too many homes and modern transport services is far preferable to having too few, as we do in the West.

    Besides, it is striking that the downbeat IMF still expects China to maintain its role as the biggest contributor to global growth. This year, China will account for one-third of the world’s economic growth, a similar proportion to the 2010s. Indeed, the West’s economic recovery after the 2008 financial crash owed much to the counter-crisis actions taken in Beijing. The Chinese government stepped in with huge stimulus policies to support its own economy, which in turn helped prop up the rest of the world. Absent China’s growth, the Western countries would have been through an even worse economic decade. And despite China’s slowdown, the IMF still expects it to contribute to almost a quarter of global growth over the five years to 2028 – double the amount coming from the US.

    Given all the indicators of China’s continuing economic durability, why are so many Western commentators so downbeat? It is extremely difficult to know precisely what is going on in China, given that access to information is so often controlled and concealed. This alone should make us at least a little sceptical of the certainty of so many Western commentators who are predicting China’s economic doom.

    Maybe Schadenfreude has something to do with the dismal forebodings. Some commentators might be taking pleasure from the apparent misfortunes of an adversary. Indeed, Western elites hold a dual view of China, as both a dangerous strategic rival and as an economic basket case. Despite the element of contradiction here – is China powerful or weak? – both are consistent with the cranking up of China-bashing over the past decade.

    More broadly, the negativity about the Chinese economy is in keeping with the deepening pessimism in Western economic thinking. After the pandemic, amid energy shortages and a war in Ukraine, we appear more stuck than ever in an economic and political quagmire. It seems there is little prospect of Western governments regaining control over developments and putting their economies back on a path to durable growth.

    It often feels as if the West is lurching from one crisis to the next without ever being able to resolve any of its challenges. Indeed, ‘permacrisis’ – meaning an extended period of great difficulty, confusion and insecurity that seems to have no end – was chosen as Collins Dictionary’s word of the year last year. So perhaps it’s no surprise that mainstream commentators anticipate a grave crisis in China, too.

    When the radical left predicted the demise of capitalism 50 years ago, this was one way of displacing its own loss of influence. Having lost belief in its capacity to gain support from working people, it was reassuring to imagine that the class enemy would soon collapse of its own accord. Similarly, a Western elite that has lost its sense of purpose and confidence might take some solace from the imminent collapse of its biggest geopolitical adversary. Back then, the presumption of capitalism’s impending demise said more about the plight of the radical left than it did about the condition of capitalism. Similarly, today’s doom-mongering about China says more about the Western elite’s sense of confusion, inertia and impotence than about anything really happening in China.

    Phil Mullan’s Beyond Confrontation: Globalists, Nationalists and Their Discontents is published by Emerald Publishing. Order it from Emerald or Amazon (UK).

    Pictures by: Getty.

    To enquire about republishing spiked’s content, a right to reply or to request a correction, please contact the managing editor, Viv Regan.

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    China is often criticised for making ‘unproductive’ investments. It is true that many of its new houses, apartments and even cities may be empty or underutilised today. But these at least provide a solid physical foundation for future growth. Having too many homes and modern transport services is far preferable to having too few, as we do in the West.

    Besides, it is striking that the downbeat IMF still expects China to maintain its role as the biggest contributor to global growth. This year, China will account for one-third of the world’s economic growth, a similar proportion to the 2010s. Indeed, the West’s economic recovery after the 2008 financial crash owed much to the counter-crisis actions taken in Beijing. The Chinese government stepped in with huge stimulus policies to support its own economy, which in turn helped prop up the rest of the world. Absent China’s growth, the Western countries would have been through an even worse economic decade. And despite China’s slowdown, the IMF still expects it to contribute to almost a quarter of global growth over the five years to 2028 – double the amount coming from the US.
    There is a saying that China is the longest continuous civilization, this is one of the most quoted narratives in the typical communist propaganda in China. It is very confusing and lacks scholastic insights like most of marxist doctrines which do not allow a systematic rebuttal. I wonder what is behind this mechanism of scientific prejudice? This happens to India, as well as to China and other very under-developed countries, which are praised for their tokens of backwardness, like african diamonds, Indian spices, chinese economy, same medecin different package--all make their homelands ever worse. But I am not saying all foreigners who praise chinese economy are bad people, most of them are good people, the problem is those who use the western apparatus to deceive their own people.

    The first paragraph quoted above is obviously prejudiced, the fund to build the excess of infrastructures in China comes from government wracking civilian deposits, chinese banks are almost un-usable, as the government is always free to down-value the chinese currency at will, and using US dollar as the real currency for the real evaluation, like an offshore in land. So richer people prefer to invest in real-estates, making the real-estate a virtually offshore business inland China !! Yes, better than to invest in foreign banks, but CCP is an autocracy, they can get the home currency always under-valued for their convenience, as long as they can do it at free will, the so called the Downfall of China economy will never happen. A very simple trick made elaborately disguised by the bureaucratic complexity.

    Chinese economy can not sustain on itself, simple as that, the trick of China is its manipulative market, the extension of manipulation goes into the spirit of the country, making itself highly operable for capital and autocrats. I might concede that it may be a strength in a global market economy, but everything should have a limit, be it good or bad. I can not say chinese economy should always accelerate merely for the good of its speed and magnitude, otherwise , the economy of China will just become an asian version of the bloody African Diamonds and Indian Spices.
    Last edited by Hexachordia; 09-02-2023 at 02:49 PM.

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    I'm gonna go ahead and admit that I just scanned this. Did it mention that their population is completely collapsing? That's like severely economically important from what I understand.

    I can believe when you say that the left wanted to call china's collapse due to capitalism, I can't believe that we'd think they were right about it all just because they were going to collapse anyways since they didn't have the population "boom" that we did after WW2.

    Several decent points made. But still, wasn't China also only able to succeed on this level solely because the west exported our manufacturing and also provided the means for global trade by dominating the seas to allow safe passage for trade and whatnot? What happens when all that's gone? Seems like west falls= China falls, and China's current military = last chance to maintain their regular isolationist empire at best without totally collapsing.

    Tell me where I might be wrong, I'd like to know
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    Why would China imported marxism at all when we already have our own very rich autocratic legacies from the last 2000 years of history. It is a contract to make deals with the jews and the western impires. USSR have wasted too much of the jewish money during the last 2 world wars, so they were disposed to split and made recompenses. Jews and Europe are geopolitical allies and religious rivals, this happens in other cases, like Russia and China. Communism exploits this religious rivalry to get a loophole of the western civilization, hence comes the spurious atheism which is a code for jews as the gods, not god choose, but literally and virtually god people, like Hitlers mythical aryans for Germany.

    So you see, when China had spent too much on science and their own national developments, but jews do not need those. If China do not expand their influences, they will have nothing to pay the jews. What the jews want is to drain the entire country with puppet dictatorships like a double colonialism by both jews and Europe(might explain how spanish colonies are a less developed). If both ways do not work, europeans would ally with jews to destroy such a nation for sure. Now Huawei is boasting the independent chips, however, Pakistan and other traditional allies are slowly sliding toward the USA, because of the jewish liaisons of the USA is incomparable. Same with USSR, powerful science alone will not save a nation from being defeated by the western coalitions, the loophole of the judeo-european alliance will not always be open. The war between China and the USA can not be avoided if the reliable jewish liaison on behalf of China could not be recovered. Do not trust common europeans this is a mistake that President Putin had made, trying to extend the hands to the aryan brothers with unrequited passion. China gotta deal with jews better than with the europeans if we want to avoid the war or not to be defeated in the war that could be coming. Something more than friendship is necessary to survive in this intricate post-colonial world order, as if dealing with an invisible devil.

    中国不能光光靠高科技应对未来的战争威胁,要让人民更加清楚地了解自己和世界,要了解世界必须先了解自己。 我把话说给你们明明白白吧,目前中国绝对打不赢美国,为什么呢,因为美国的霸权主义并非是单纯的经济政治科 技上的霸权,美国本身就是一种新的信仰,是很多穆斯林,基督教世界的希望之乡。懂吗?这是为什么巴基斯坦会 与美国合作建设军事基地的原因,巴基斯坦作为最可靠的盟友,还滑到美国那边,其暗藏的意义之深刻,是绝大多 数中国人绝对不能理解的。连巴基斯坦都那样,何况是其他国家,包括俄罗斯。中国要打好与美国可能的战争,最 好的思路就是如何打好一场必然失败的战争,从现在开始准备失败,才能把失败的后果降到最少,这就是我们最大 的赢面。不打,一味地避免战争,损失可能更大,有时候战争反而是双方来说最可靠实惠的对抗模式。目前金砖扩 员包涵进来的穆斯林国家,也很可能是一个美国的麻痹政策,千万不要用金砖的扩展来对抗美国,抗 不过的。

    中共一而再再而三地拉拢欧洲,就是外交无知的体现,和乌克兰战争前的俄罗斯一模一样,我说过了欧洲不可信怎 么听不懂呢。然而现实是在菲律宾问题上被狠狠地羞辱了,菲律宾军方先发出战争威胁,然后进行对仁爱礁军舰的 补给和加固,都完成了,这次事件的涵义这么明白是糊弄不过去的。中共在这个问题上只能欺骗中国人自己,不要 说什么为了区域和平或者避免亚洲的乌克兰事件,都是说不过去的,为什么?因为人家的官方战争威胁已经先出来 了,你懂得这个意思吗?相当于已经一拳打到了脸上了,你不打,往后在怎么弄,都是吃亏的分。别总相信共产党 的了,用自己的眼睛看看现实吧。这是你们最后的自救机会了。很多的外交细节所暗藏的重大意义,需要我们自己 去解读的,中共总是偏向解读,而且掩盖了很多很多的历史事实,让中国人对这些很敏感的细节中的真理一直很麻 木。

    --光子
    Last edited by Hexachordia; 09-06-2023 at 07:33 AM.

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    Today we have discover the hidden mode of colonialism: Double colonization.

    The worst colonies are obviously those by France and Spain, namely Africa and Philippines. Here is the most plausible explanation for disparity between colonies: France and Spain failed in protecting their colonies and lost them to jews+americans: DOUBLE colonialism. If the USA as the final coalition between zionists and europeans, then being re-colonized by the USA surely becomes a double colonization by both the America, also the zionists as well. Explains why before being protected by the USA Philippines were a rich country, that was a single colonization. The USA still remain as a single colonizational colony, since they were only conquered once by the europeans, zionists were introduced as the re-colonization component ideology, therefore not a conquest by the jews. The US influence on the Latin Americas thus becomes double colonizations, if not economically disruptive, still socially dragging these countries behind.

    I am not opposing the lifestyle or political orientations of the Latin Americas, I do not think L.A are bad countries, they are very beautiful and successful countries in their own way. That is the way they mean to be. Rather, I do not want China to become defeated in this way, it will be like being defeated by the entire world, not just jews and americans and europeans. Now China is a single colonization country like the USA, Japan, Russia, by either the jews or europeans only. Therefore, we must not be defeated again !!

    当前就是一个巨大 危难之前夕,中国北京共产党,你们不要再欺骗人民了,你们再这样下去,最后的后果将无比悲惨。必须把更多是 事实真理告诉给人民,中国人啊,当下的险恶,你们可否知晓?y已经远超一战二战。

    ---Photonius/光子
    Last edited by Hexachordia; 09-06-2023 at 08:32 AM.

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