Ancient Ukrainian lands and Ukraine-controlled area in 2023/2024

**Varda** · 01-18-2024, 07:45 PM

Ukrainian nazis tend to call Russians Muscovites and Russian language Muscovite language (they often say it's artificial created). Ukrops claim Rus name and see themselves as only successors of Kievan Rus. For them Great Russians or Muscovite as they call them are semi Asian horde which stole they history, name, language, culture etc.

**rothaer** · 01-18-2024, 07:45 PM

Originally Posted by Dušan

I would say that Ukrainians are Russian people who formed separated identity due to several centuries of Polish rule.

Well, you can express it that way.

More exact I'd say that Ukrainian is simply part of the East Slavic continuum and Polish didn't form anything but the state borders prevented the uniforming of East Slavic as Russian proper in that area.

**rothaer** · 01-18-2024, 08:15 PM

Originally Posted by rothaer

Well, you can express it that way.

More exact I'd say that Ukrainian is simply part of the East Slavic continuum and Polish didn't form anything but the state borders prevented the uniforming of East Slavic as Russian proper in that area.

If we compare this with German conditions it has to be noted that Germany is somewhat fucked up since quite a while by being distributed onto a number of states but on the other hand regardless of its pretty diverse dialects has a common consciousness and a common cultural will. Consider that Switzerland has been split off from the German Empire (HRE) since 1648 (like the Netherlands) and keeps High German as the only official German language in spite of that no local dialect is even close to that. Swiss Germans that do not have a pan German consciousness in my sense. But they nevertheless declare ever since to be part of the German Kulturnation (cultural nation). This implies that to Swiss Germans it is clear and conscious that a book (or a newspaper like Neue Zürcher Zeitung) published in Switzerland is an edition for the whole of Germany.

Sometimes I wonder whether Dutch could theoretically have gone the same way.

However, if we project this to Russia in a wider sense, Ukraine and Belarus could maybe have acted resembling to Switzerland without denying their local peculiarities. I don't know how the Russian culture is. The German culture is not just tolerant but even appreciative of local German peculiarities.

**Your Old Comrade** · 01-18-2024, 10:51 PM

Originally Posted by Dušan

I would say that Ukrainians are Russian people who formed separated identity due to several centuries of Polish rule.

And that identity is to be accepted. It's the same with us and Flanders. If Belgium falls apart one day, and the Flemish seek to join us ? They should be welcomed with open arms. But they have a seperate identity and not one Dutchman or Fleming should die to "unite" something that was undone twice over (the Eighty Years War and because they, rightfully, sent us packing back in 1830-1831). Almost 80K people died for what ? For a King that ruled without consent of the governed, alienated half the country due to his political ineptitude and stupid stubborness and that finally effed off the moment peace was signed. In fact: I strongly doubt that even a single Dutchman (or Fleming) would be willing to even enlist to fight each other. Try that, and you'd have a revolution before the day is over.

I think that's the difference between us and the Russians. Plus: 106 years after peace was signed, we signed a treaty that, effectively, reunited us in so many ways anyway.

We can argue the same for us and the Germans. The Union that existed between us, the South and the Germans fell apart de facto in 1568 and de jure in 1648. And we're perfectly fine with it and not one Dutchman or German would, save for the years of post-war bitterness, deny the ties between us (Hell: our very anthem mentions it and the leader of our revolt was a French-speaking German nobleman !), but those ties do not and will not mean that we desire a poltical union between us. Not now, or ever. And they know it and we know it and we respect that of each other.

Maybe the Russians should try the same thing for once.