Classify these Outer Hebrideans

[Mopi Licinius Crassus]

Nordic to me is Scandinavian. They aren't the only Northwest Europeans however. How can you not trust genetics when anyone has access now to tools and can even look at their own dna and other family members? It's not something you can falsify and why would anyone want to? An example would be most Irish people would have thought they were Celtic and heavily influenced by Celts genetically. DNA shows they aren't but are much more influenced by the Bronze Age Bell Beaker populations. Genetics is non-political and not open to people's subjective biases. You just have to accept what it shows even if it is not what people might want.

Genetics in fact does not give historically implausible results. I'm amazed at how it gives very logical and accurate results. One thing that is very logical is that populations aren't very different than their neighbours whereas people previously believed very strange theories about populations but genetics has cleared up a lot of these myths about populations. Anyway that would rather trust their subjective opinions on what people should look like over genetics is someone that is not open to learning like the "flat earthers". They have ancient genomes now that they can analyse their dna. It's absolutely marvellous.

I think I may have asked before about this, but what is the difference between the bell beakers and proto-celts?
I used to assume bell beakers were the branch of Indo-European speaking steppe people that became the Celts in western Europe

[aherne]

I'm amazed at how it gives very logical and accurate results.

Such as the Basques being paternally... "Indo-European" or, as I've learnt yesterday, the people of El Argar culture in Andalusia having been genetically replaced by the Bell Beaker people, all in crass denial of:
- archaeological remains that shows continuity from the Neolithic onwards
- historical evidence that shows this area to be Tartesian/Iberian speaking until Romanization
- physical anthropology that demonstrate that people there (then and now) have same amounts of "Indo-European" influences as the Sardinians (almost zero)
I wouldn't be surprised they won't find a "steppe" strain/dominance in people of Lebanon either and you guys will believe it...

I'm not denying that some of their findings helped us prove something that the anthropologists/historians have guessed long before (the three components of European ancestry) and that they're quite reliable in determining racial (but not ethnic) ancestries, but to treat them as science is untenable because one of the main characteristics of science is for a fact to be independently reproductible. If they were science, independent teams studying the same remains / same populations would reach the same conclusions: instead they come with wildly different and totally wild estimates.

Proof: What's the genetic contribution of HG/ENF/ARYAN elements in, say, Romanians? If you search over the internet about what these so-called scientists have found out, you will see a lottery of numbers...

Also, the very idea that the indigenous population in NW Europe was exterminated is in complete hatred of history and lacking any archaeological proof. Furthermore, it is contradicted by the looks of people in areas least affected by the two other migrations: Northern Europe, especially NW and NE corners, showing a complete gradation of more or less pure indigenous phenotypes that have no parallels outside Europe.

[Grace O'Malley]

I think Ireland, especially the west of Ireland has been a more peripheral area in Europe and didn't get as many of the German and French migrations that GB got, especially eastern England which genetically is the most French and German. Are the Basques isolated? i can't see that being the case as they are basically closely related to their Spanish and French populations.

The most distinctive parts of Ireland are Donegal and Cork not the west per se. However all of Ireland is very close genetically but in the latest dna studies done they found that Donegal was the most distinctive and isolated. This however does not mean they are completely isolated but just more so than other parts of Ireland. Donegal for instance has had Scots input going back hundreds of years and Cork has had Normans, Vikings and English settle there but still there is a bit of isolation due to mountain ranges in southern Munster and Donegal is a periphery area of Ireland and one of the most distant areas in Ireland. The Basque are distinctive from the rest of Spain which is why they have their own genetic cluster. They don't get the North African or Iberomaurusian that is in the rest of Iberians nor the Roman or North European admixture which makes them distinctive to a certain degree. Look at the population distances to other Spanish for example and of course they have a distinctive cluster. Of course the west of Ireland if you compare it to South East England has not had the Continental influences that has occurred there but west Ireland has not been isolated either. Nearly every place in Ireland is accessible by water for instance and places like Galway has always had Normans and English settle there. Galway City for example is known as Galway of the Tribes due to 14 merchant families that dominated there from the mid-13th Century to the 19th Century. These families were a mix of Anglo-Norman and native Irish families. The history is interesting.

Galway is often referred to as the City of Tribes. This is reference to the fourteen tribes of Galway or the fourteen merchant families who once dominated Galway between the mid-13th and late 19th centuries. The fourteen tribes included the following families: Athy, Blake, Bodkin, Browne, D’Arcy, Deane, Font, Ffrench, Joyce (One of whom was Richard Joyce – Creator of the Claddagh Ring), Kirwan, Lynch, Martin, Morris and Skerritt.

These families first came to Galway during the Middle Ages and had become very wealthy through trade with France and Spain. Most of these tribes were Anglo-Norman and considered themselves separate from the Gaelic natives that lived outside of the city walls. With their arrival they drove the Gaelic family the O Flaherties to the rough and wild landscape of Connemara. The O Flahertys became feared and on the surrounding wall of the city the words “From the Ferocious O Flaherty’s O Lord deliver us” were inscribed.

http://claddaghlegend.com/?p=431

The Tribes of Galway (Irish: Treibheanna na Gaillimhe) were 14 merchant families who dominated the political, commercial and social life of the city of Galway in western Ireland between the mid-13th and late 19th centuries. They were the families of Athy, Blake, Bodkin, Browne, Darcy/D’Arcy, Deane, Fant, French, Joyce, Kirwan, Lynch, Martyn, Morris and Skerritt. Of the 14 families, 12 were of Anglo Norman origin, while two—the Darcy (Ó Dorchaidhe) and Kirwan (Ó Ciardhubháin) families—were Normanised Irish Gaels.[1]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tribes_of_Galway

[Grace O'Malley]

Such as the Basques being paternally... "Indo-European" or, as I've learnt yesterday, the people of El Argar culture in Andalusia having been genetically replaced by the Bell Beaker people, all in crass denial of:
- archaeological remains that shows continuity from the Neolithic onwards
- historical evidence that shows this area to be Tartesian/Iberian speaking until Romanization
- physical anthropology that demonstrate that people there (then and now) have same amounts of "Indo-European" influences as the Sardinians (almost zero)
I wouldn't be surprised they won't find a "steppe" strain/dominance in people of Lebanon either and you guys will believe it...

I'm not denying that some of their findings helped us prove something that the anthropologists/historians have guessed long before (the three components of European ancestry) and that they're quite reliable in determining racial (but not ethnic) ancestries, but to treat them as science is untenable because one of the main characteristics of science is for a fact to be independently reproductible. If they were science, independent teams studying the same remains / same populations would reach the same conclusions: instead they come with wildly different and totally wild estimates.

Proof: What's the genetic contribution of HG/ENF/ARYAN elements in, say, Romanians? If you search over the internet about what these so-called scientists have found out, you will see a lottery of numbers...

Also, the very idea that the indigenous population in NW Europe was exterminated is in complete hatred of history and lacking any archaeological proof. Furthermore, it is contradicted by the looks of people in areas least affected by the two other migrations: Northern Europe, especially NW and NE corners, showing a complete gradation of more or less pure indigenous phenotypes that have no parallels outside Europe.

Basques are on the paternal side Bell Beaker but it is reduced compared to other Iberians. There is nothing controversial or difficult to understand with this. Regarding places like Ireland there has always been a history of population boom and bust. They can show that there was a big population crash at different periods in Ireland. This quite likely occurred in the adjacent island of Britain also. Anyway the farmer population of Ireland had reduced drastically by the time the Bell Beakers came there which is why you don't see the same thing that happened in Spain with the Bell Beakers taking Iberian wives. The Bell Beakers that came to Ireland came with women as well and whatever population was in Ireland was greatly reduced. This is most likely due to climatic conditions with Ireland being wet and windy and most suited to cattle rearing which was the Bell Beaker speciality. Nothing really strange or odd about it and they can look at ancient genomes and tell you what populations where there in the past. It's a wonderful thing to now be able to see these studies.

I'm not sure why you object or have issues with genetics? Do you think there is some conspiracy with the results? Why and to what purpose if you believe this?

Of course genetics is science. That's not even disputable.

Also no area of Spain was replaced genetically. The Bell Beakers that went there just outcompeted with the males for the females. The farmer population of Spain did survive which is why Spain doesn't cluster with populations more North because they have more farmer dna and less Steppe. It's very straight forward and only people that don't like the results would dispute the findings.

[Grace O'Malley]

I think I may have asked before about this, but what is the difference between the bell beakers and proto-celts?
I used to assume bell beakers were the branch of Indo-European speaking steppe people that became the Celts in western Europe

Bell Beakers are a Bronze Age population and genetically different than later Celts. The Celts originated somewhere where languages such as Proto-Germanic was spoken and Italic and are an Iron Age culture. Proto-Celts are associated with Urnfield Culture and later particularly with the Hallstatt Culture. Bell Beakers genetically where quite Northern originally and Celts were more similar to Central Europeans such as the Swiss, Southern Germans etc. There are some genomes available of these populations. There has been a bit of a lack of genetic studies over the last couple of years so I hope more will be coming out in the next few years.

[Oliver109]

Bell Beakers are a Bronze Age population and genetically different than later Celts. The Celts originated somewhere where languages such as Proto-Germanic was spoken and Italic and are an Iron Age culture. Proto-Celts are associated with Urnfield Culture and later particularly with the Hallstatt Culture. Bell Beakers genetically where quite Northern originally and Celts were more similar to Central Europeans such as the Swiss, Southern Germans etc. There are some genomes available of these populations. There has been a bit of a lack of genetic studies over the last couple of years so I hope more will be coming out in the next few years.

I think the Bell beakers must have brought the more northern looking phenotypes to Ireland, as is obvious the majority of Ireland is quite northern in race and there are metrical similarities with Friesians and Norwegians etc.

[Grace O'Malley]

I think the Bell beakers must have brought the more northern looking phenotypes to Ireland, as is obvious the majority of Ireland is quite northern in race and there are metrical similarities with Friesians and Norwegians etc.

HGs were very Northern and more so than Bell Beakers but like most of Europe at that time Farmers and HGs were the populations in Western Europe. Bell Beakers had mixed with GAC populations on the way to places like Ireland but yes they were a more northern population than Farmers. An example of an Irish Farmer is Ballynahatty who is most similar to Sardinians and Spanish than present day Irishmen. The Irish today are closer to populations like Rathlin. There has been some populations that have come to Ireland since the Bell Beakers which is why present Irish have a bit more Farmer than Bell Beakers. These populations would have come via Britain (like most of the populations that have come to Ireland previously). An example I can use is the Normans. When they came to Ireland they were already a century in Britain and already mixed with Welsh and English. In Ireland the Normans became known as the Old English in contrast to the later English who came during the time of the plantations. Normans in that time were already integrated and mixed with Irish clans. I'm using this as an example of how populations that came to Ireland came via Britain first. The only ones that were an exception to this were Vikings and even the Vikings from Dublin were the ones who went to places like York.

York and Dublin, the two most important Viking settlements in Western Europe, are joining to learn from each other about their linked heritage and history, it was announced today.

The project – funded by the Arts and Humanities Research Council (AHRC), part of UK Research and Innovation, with the support of Creative Ireland, Dublin City Council and the National University of Ireland – aims to develop new collaborations between York in England and Dublin in Ireland, to expand knowledge of their shared Viking-age history.

Dyflin and Jórvik (Viking Age Dublin and York) each experienced enormous change during their time as Viking colonial centres in the late 9th and early 10th century and were closely linked during the late ninth and early tenth century when the same family ruled over them both. Not only do they have a shared history, but both cities also have comparable waterlogged layers of well-preserved archaeology and have been extensively excavated.

https://www.gla.ac.uk/news/archiveof...758494_en.html

So regarding Ireland it would be populations from Britain that came after the Bell Beakers.

[Immanenz]

Julie Fowlis

All in all, they are more broad-skulled than the average Briton, in that regard they are closer to the Irish. I see a lot of Brünnization and Alpinization going on.

what is Brünnization if its an early European phenotype?

[Smaug]

what is Brünnization if its an early European phenotype?

Becoming Brünn-like, i.e. having Brünn influence.

[aherne]

I'm not sure why you object or have issues with genetics? Do you think there is some conspiracy with the results? Why and to what purpose if you believe this?

Doesn't matter what I believe. I believe in science and what you told me is just snake oil... Pseudo-scientific verbiage to explain ridiculous results that have no historical/logical backing. It's like religion, where the main ingredient is belief rather than reasoning...

What are the genetic contributions of the three founding elements in Romanians?

Some "scientists" for example say 70% ENF, 20% Aryan, 10% HG, others say 50% ENF, 30% HG, 20% Aryan (as I heard yesterday). My conclusion: random numbers => no science


BTW: weren't those HG "of color" (black skinned) exterminated?