More Romani visibility please

[Varda]

Fiume and Zara were always Croatian, before Italian occupation after WW1, so please dont twist the facts, I am 1/4 italian and love Italy, but that doesnt mean I have to read somethin like this and not react.

Italian occupation of Fiume and Zara after 1918 is occupation nevermind it happened after WW1.

With that way of thinking, and to go deep into history, entire Serbia should go to Turks and before that to Italians (Roman Empire), and you know very well how stupid this sounds.

Some minority of Italians base their claims because of Roman Empire, which is hilarious, 70% of Europe would go to Italy.

Going with that kind of thinking, Greeks should ask everything from Greece to India because or Alexander Hellenic Empire.

Or lets go even further into History and revive dinosaurus and leave this entire planet to them.

Italians don't claim Zadar because of Roman empire, but because of about 540 years of Venetian rule on city from high middle age to 1797. and 25 years of Italian rule (1918-1943). Italy is successor of Venetian republic. Almost 6 centuries of Italian rule and presence in Zadar is huge period, it is not same as few years of Italian occupation of Albania in 20th century. Even in Austrian/Austrian-Hungarian period (1797-1918) Dalmatian coastal cities were under the strong Italian cultural influence, especially Zadar which had Italian relative majority. I have seen original documents of marriages of Serbs and Croatians from Dalmatian hinterland (Drniš, Knin, Vrlika) from 19th century which are written on Italian language regardless it was Austrian rule in that period.

[RobocopReturns]

These were internationaly recognized parts of Italy according to Treaty of Versailles that brought peace for Europe, and most likely would remain parts of Italy, if Italy didnt take its expansionist adventure and attacked Greece and Yugoslavia

Treaty of Versailles is long dead, and it was erased BY NEW BORDERS OF EUROPE after WW2, means 1945.

If we would look into borders according to treaty of Versailles in 1919, then in this exact moment entire Europe would enter into war, everyone against everyone.

According to international law, UN, and every law of this planet on international level, borders were settled in 1945 of what is what when it comes about Europe and world, as you know.

To question those borders even for a second by any of countries today, means WAR on international level, or to be more precise: World War 3, which would mean ofcourse the end of the world, because World War 4 would be fought with STONES.

So Treaty of Versailles, is absolutely irrelevant, not only when it comes about Croatia and Italy, but when it comes about entire Europe.

[RobocopReturns]

Italians don't claim Zadar because of Roman empire, but because of about 540 years of Venetian rule on city from high middle age to 1797. and 25 years of Italian rule (1918-1943). Italy is successor of Venetian republic. Almost 6 centuries of Italian rule and presence in Zadar is huge period, it is not same as few years of Italian occupation of Albania in 20th century. Even in Austrian/Austrian-Hungarian period (1797-1918) Dalmatian coastal cities were under the strong Italian cultural influence, especially Zadar which had Italian relative majority. I have seen original documents of marriages of Serbs and Croatians from Dalmatian hinterland (Drniš, Knin, Vrlika) from 19th century which are written on Italian language regardless it was Austrian rule in that period.

They can claim China, but it doesnt mean they will get it. (And as I've said, only minority of Italians think like that, maybe like 5-10% of them, and even that is questionable percentage.)

If someone own somethin for 500 years doesnt mean it's theirs.

Going with that, then Italians should also claim CRETE, Venice ruled Crete from 1211-1669, maybe we should ask Greeks here what they about that? Should they give Crete to Italians?

[Varda]

They can claim China, but it doesnt mean they will get it. (And as I've said, only minority of Italians think like that, maybe like 5-10% of them, and even that is questionable percentage.)

If someone own somethin for 500 years doesnt mean it's theirs.

Going with that, then Italians should also claim CRETE, Venice ruled Crete from 1211-1669, maybe we should ask Greeks here what they about that? Should they give Crete to Italians?

Italians (Venetians) never lived in Crete, they just ruled on that island. I don't count Venetian clerks which were on Crete. Zadar, Trogir and few island are only parts of Dalmatia wich had Italian population. It is mainstream than around WW1 and WW2 Italians were relative majority in Zadar, i don't know for earlier period (maybe Dušan know). In Dalmatia as whole Italians were never over 5-6%, but in Zadar, Trogir and on few island there lived in higher percentages for centuries. I am not Italian advocate, i just said what are their stronger arguments to claim Zadar or Istria than for example Crete not to mention Albania. There is a video at YT when Italian army arrived to Zadar in 1941, a lot of locals (Italians and pro-Italian non-Italians) welcomed them with euphoria. On the other hand nobody of locals liked Italian army in Greece including Crete, they considered Italians for invaders and fought against them.

[RobocopReturns]

Italians (Venetians) never lived in Crete, they just ruled on that island. I don't count Venetian clerks which were on Crete. Zadar, Trogir and few island are only parts of Dalmatia wich had Italian population. It is mainstream than around WW1 and WW2 Italians were relative majority in Zadar, i don't know for earlier period (maybe Dušan know). In Dalmatia as whole Italians were never over 5-6%, but in Zadar, Trogir and on few island there lived in higher percentages for centuries. I am not Italian advocate, i just said what are their stronger arguments for claim if Zadar or Istria than Crete for example not to mention Albania. There is a video at YT when Italian army arrived to Zadar in 1941, a lot of locals (Italians and pro-Italian non-Italians) welcomed them with euphoria. On the other hand noboday of locals liked Italian army in Greece including Crete, they considered Italians for invaders and fought against them.

Dont forget Croatians who converted into Italians durin Venice occupation of Zadar, and later durin Italian occupation.

Changing surnames into Italian surnames, Italianization at maximum.

Im not sayin there wasnt any true italians living in Zara, but majority of them were italianized Croats.

Who later on, in 1945 were all looked upon by communist Yugoslavia as Italians, and forced to leave Zadar.

Some of them stayed here in Zadar, I mean, there are a lot of people in Zadar with Italian surnames.

Some of those surnames are of true italian origin, and some of them are from italianization from long time ago.

When my granny (who was from North Italy) came here to live in Zadar (Zara), she knew very well which surname was true italian, ad which one was italianized.

For example, neighbour towns near Zadar, there surnames like: Santini, that particular surname is of true Italian origin, but some surnames like Antonić into Antonelli...

I mean... cammon.

[Varda]

Dont forget Croatians who converted into Italians durin Venice occupation of Zadar, and later durin Italian occupation.

Changing surnames into Italian surnames, Italianization at maximum.

Im not sayin there wasnt any true italians living in Zara, but majority of them were italianized Croats.

Who later on, in 1945 were all looked upon by communist Yugoslavia as Italians, and forced to leave Zadar.

Some of them stayed here in Zadar, I mean, there are a lot of people in Zadar with Italian surnames.

Some of those surnames are of true italian origin, and some of them are from italianization from long time ago.

When my granny (who was from North Italy) came here to live in Zadar (Zara), she knew very well which surname was true italian, ad which one was italianized.

For example, neighbour towns near Zadar, there surnames like: Santini, that particular surname is of true Italian origin, but some surnames like Antonić into Antonelli...

I mean... cammon.

Some Croatians were italianized durring the Venetian and even Austrian rule of course. Also, native Dalmatian Romance speakers were affected by italianization, people whose native language was this https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dalmatian_language

In 1726, 1727 and 1733 certain number of Albanians from area south of Skadar lake settled near Zadar. Village Arbanasi near Zadar was named by them, today it is part of Zadar. Arbanasi around Zadar were croatized in 19th century. In the second half of 19th century the biggest Croatian nationalists in Zadar area were Arbanasi, it is one of the most interesting moments from Zadar history to me. They were bilingual most of the time since they settled near Zadar, today only few older people of Arbanasi origin in Zadar know Albanian language.
Among others Croatian singers Tomislav Ivčić and Mladen Grdović are of Arbabasi origin
https://hr.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tomislav_Ivčić
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mladen_Grdović

Btw one woman from my neighborhood is 1/2 Croatian, 1/4 Italian and 1/4 Serbian. Her one grandmother was Italian from some Dalmatian island, her other grandma was Serbian from Dalmatian hinterland and both grandfathers were Croatians from hinterland. That woman looks Portuguese to me, must be related with her Italian admixture. Her son has something Italian in appearance (her husband is a Serbs, also from Dalmatia.

[RobocopReturns]

Some Croatians were italianized durring the Venetian and even Austrian rule of course. Also, native Dalmatian Romance speakers were affected by italianization, people whose native language was this https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dalmatian_language

In 1726, 1727 and 1733 certain number of Albanians from area south of Skadar lake settled near Zadar. Village Arbanasi near Zasar was named by them, today it is part of Zadar. Arbanasi around Zadar were croatized in 19th century. In the second half of 19th century the biggest Croatian nationalists in Zadar area were Arbanasi, it is one of the most interesting moments from Zadar history to me. They were bilingual most of the time since they settled near Zadar, today only few older people of Arbanasi origin in Zadar know Albanians language.
Among others Croatian singers Tomislav Ivčić and Mladen Grdović are of Arbabasi origin
https://hr.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tomislav_Ivčić
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mladen_Grdović

Btw one women from my neighborhood is 1/2 Croatian, 1/4 Italian and 1/4 Serbian. Her one grandmother was Italian from some Dalmatian island, her other grandma was Serbian from Dalmatian hinterland and both grandfathers were Croatians from hinterland. That woman looks Portuguese to me, must be related with her Italian admixture. Her son has sonething Italian in appearance (her husband is a Serbs, also from Dalmatia.

Everythin true, I would just say one thing is wrong what you said hehe: Tomislav Ivčić's mum was of Arbanasi, his father wasn't. Ivčić's father was from Novigrad near Zadar, no connection to Arbanasi.

Better example of Arbanasi when it comes about known people from Zadar is Ivčić's HALF BROTHER (same mother) and also a singer: Đani Maršan, he is arbanasi both from mother and father.

[Varda]

Anyway Mingle is right that Italian Fascists were less bad than German Nazis. At least they had no plans to exterminate any peoples and initially there were even Jewish Fascist Party members, so I guess they were more tolerant initially. But later Mussolini came under Hitler's influence more and more and first adopted Nazi racial laws in the late 30s expelling Jewish party members and taking away civil rights from Jews, then during the Republic of Salo days fully collaborated with Nazis in deporting Italian Jews to Nazi extermination camps. It was all because he became a very close friend of Hitler and was hypnotized or something by Adolf.

My ancestors and cousins who remembered WW2 said only positive things about Italians. According to them Italian soldiers were especially good towards children.

[Dušan]

Treaty of Versailles is long dead, and it was erased BY NEW BORDERS OF EUROPE after WW2, means 1945.

If we would look into borders according to treaty of Versailles in 1919, then in this exact moment entire Europe would enter into war, everyone against everyone.

According to international law, UN, and every law of this planet on international level, borders were settled in 1945 of what is what when it comes about Europe and world, as you know.

To question those borders even for a second by any of countries today, means WAR on international level, or to be more precise: World War 3, which would mean ofcourse the end of the world, because World War 4 would be fought with STONES.

So Treaty of Versailles, is absolutely irrelevant, not only when it comes about Croatia and Italy, but when it comes about entire Europe.

Are you stupid or what?

Borders between Italy and Yugoslavia would not change in 1945 (with Yugoslavia getting Istria, Fiume and Zara) if Italy didnt previously being aggressive and attacked Yugoslavia and Greece, and joined Hitler.
Borders would remained the same as in 1919.

You can thanks Italian stupidity now having these areas in Croatia.
Croats were worse nazis than Italians.

[Mingle]

Italians (Venetians) never lived in Crete, they just ruled on that island. I don't count Venetian clerks which were on Crete. Zadar, Trogir and few island are only parts of Dalmatia wich had Italian population. It is mainstream than around WW1 and WW2 Italians were relative majority in Zadar, i don't know for earlier period (maybe Dušan know). In Dalmatia as whole Italians were never over 5-6%, but in Zadar, Trogir and on few island there lived in higher percentages for centuries. I am not Italian advocate, i just said what are their stronger arguments to claim Zadar or Istria than for example Crete not to mention Albania. There is a video at YT when Italian army arrived to Zadar in 1941, a lot of locals (Italians and pro-Italian non-Italians) welcomed them with euphoria. On the other hand nobody of locals liked Italian army in Greece including Crete, they considered Italians for invaders and fought against them.

It seems to be a similar situation to Trieste in Slovenia. The countryside was Slovene and it was a historically Slovene region, but Italians (Venetians) urbanised it partly and became the majority over time. But unlike Croatia with Zadar, Slovenia never ended up getting it back.