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Thread: Jul Orthodox monasteries in Kosova are Albanian heritage

  1. #21
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    Some nations show restraint, shyness, or reluctance when it comes to exalting historical events and national heroes. India, for example, a country where thousands of myths originated, has refrained from underscoring the deeds of her national heroes.
    Sylvain, Levy, India: "India does not have that worship of great men so important to us ... India has given birth to an exceptional genious, Asvaghosha ... Asvaghosha belongs entirely to Western learning" (cited by J. Grenier, "Imaginary India," Les lIes, Gallimard, 1959).
    Conversely, it has become the characteristic of the Serb nation - as various scholars have observed - to glorify personages and events associated with nationalists pride. For imaginative, sentimental, or other reasons which shall not be examined here, the Serbs have created nationalistic myths as India has created religious ones.

    Illustrative of this conception are a few examples picked at random from various books:
    "Dusan’s achievement became more than a historical memory. It was to constitute a political programme for the Serbs who, early in the nineteenth century, were liberated from over five centuries of Turkish rule" (H.C. Darby [and others] ,A short history of Yugoslavia from early times to 1966, London, Cambridge U.P. 1966, p. 87) II "Nineteenth-century British statesmen did not use the affairs of Plantagenet England as an argument in forming their policy, but the memory of Dusan’s Empire, kept alive by folk-tales and ballads, was an important factor in the "Eastern Question" and the "Macedonia Problem" (ibidem). // "Urosh III who was murdered by his son Stefan Dushan was regarded as a saint although he had revolted against his own father, murdered his own brother and sought to murder his own son" (Temperley, op. cit., p. 63-64) II "Czar Stefan was named "Dushan" because he strangled his father, but his name is interpreted as ‘victorious’, (K. Jirecek, Geschichte derSerben, p. 365-366). II Plusieurs de leurs rois ont ete eleves au rang des saints de cette eglise sans l’avoir toujours merite par leur conduite" — "In this Church, several of their kings were elevated to the rank of saints without always deserving it through their conduct" (A. Boue, La Turquie d’Europe, II p. 65). II "Historically, Marko Kraljevich is a petty Serbian chieftain who served under the Turks against his Christian brethern when it paid him to do so... but popular imagination had attached to him the attributes of the ancient war-God" (Durham, Some Tribal . . . p. 108).
    In so doing, however, they have insisted to the extreme upon the rights of their own nation which clash with those of other nations.

    True, for instance, the Battle of Kosova, so greatly exalted by the Serbo-Montenegrins since Karadzic's time, was an important and sad event for the Slavs. However, when viewed objectively, one must concede that this battle, as specialist have not failed to remark - was not fought by the Serbs alone, but by a coalition of Balkan nations: Bulgarians, Vlachs, and Albanians (including 10 000 Croats). As a consequence, these nations should be imparted the merit due to them. Various sources suggest that the most numerous troops were the Albanian and that they were placed in the front rows.

    The important role of the Albanians in this battle is attested by Greek and Turkish sources: Hierax, Chronique sur l’Empire des Turcs, Sathas, Bibliotheca Graeca, I, p. 247. See also S. Pulaha, The Albano-Turkish War in Ottoman sources (in Albanian), Tirana, 1968 and Enciklopedija Jugoslavije, knj. 4, Zagreb, 1960, p. 467.
    The Ottoman army was led by Sultan Murad I and the military commander Evrenos Bey. The battle began with the advance of the Serbian cavalry and Albanian infantry, which completely destroyed the left wing of the Ottoman. Problems for the Christians began when Vuk Branković betrayed and withdrew and the Ottomans were finally achieved by substantial reinforcements and were thus able to defeat the enemy army, tired and outnumbered.

    Practically the whole Serbian and Albanian nobility was exterminated on the spot along with Albanian Princ Teodor I Muzaka and Serbian Prince Lazar Hrebeljanović.

    Source: Historia ovvero Historia turco-bizantina 1341-1462 Ducas

    Besides, the victory of the Turks in that battle is said to have been occasioned by the treason of Vuk Branković, Knez Lazar's son-in-law, who deserted to the Turks at the critical point of the battle with a large number of Serbs.


    At the turn of the century, an attempt was made by the Serbian intelligentzia to deny the betrayal (see A. Arnautovic, La poesie kossovienne, Paris (pamphlet, reprint from Revue Yougoslave, 1919).


    The important role of myths becomes evident when one thinks that the Battle of Nikopolis on the Danube, where the army of Sigismond of Hungary fought in 1395 against Beyazit, was just as decisive as that of Kosova, and perhaps as important, according to some scholars, as the very capture of Constantinople by the Turks. Yet we are heedless of its importance because of lack of myths. The Turkish victory on this battle is also due to the Serb troops fighting on the Turkish side, Beyazid being married to the sister of Stefan Lazarevic.

    .... . This victory of Islam was to no small degree due to the Servian troops fighting on the Turkish side. The Servians recovered Belgrade, but in the long run this gain hardly compensated them for the disaster which they prepared by strengthening the Ottoman Empire," (C.N. E. Eliot, Turkey in Europe, 1965 ed. p. 41).

    ”Furthermore, in response to Turkish pressure, some Serbian noblemen wed their daughters, including the daughter of Prince Lazar, to Bayezid. In the wake of these marriages, Stefan Lazarević became a loyal ally of Bayezid, going on to contribute significant forces to many of Bayezid’s future military engagements, including the Battle of Nicopolis.”,( The Ottoman Empire, 1700–1922 By Donald Quataert, p. 26)

    As to the hero of Kosova Battle, widely sung by the Serbs in the 19th century, most people will perhaps show surprise at learning that in all likelihood he was Albanian. His name, which was not recorded in Serbian church documents - perhaps for the simple reason that he might have been Catholic, perhaps also for other motives - became known to us thanks to a casual traveler and through Turkish documents: originally Copal - which is Albanian - it was Serbized, as were at that time other Albanian names, thus becoming Kopilic. In the 18th century, Kopil, Kopilic, underwent another modification and at present is merely known as Obilic.

    Dragutin, Kostic, "Milos Kopilic — Kobilic — Obilic," Revue Internationale des etudes balkaniques, 1935, I, pp. 232-254. According to Kostic, the absence of the hero’s name from Serbian docments may be attributed to the chroniclers’ habit of mentioning merely names of well-known nobles. Evidently, Milos did not come from a prominent family.
    The Balkan word Kopil (non-Slavic) is considered by F. Miklosic (Etym Worterb. d. Slav. Spr.) and by Skok (Juznoslav Fil XII p. 142) as being of Albanian origin. In Albanian it also has the meaning of smart, skilled. Kostic has indicated two localities by that name.
    Surprisingly, Kostic attributes also to the first name of the hero an Illyro-Albanian ongin. Duje Rendic-Miosevic has shown clear evidence that some old Croatian names have an Illyrian origin: e.g. Licca, Pleto (Illyr. = Liccavus, Pletor), among many others (see D. Rendk-Miocevic, "Prilog proucavanju nase ranosredovjecne onomastike," Starohrvatska pros vj eta, ser. III, 1949, 1, pp.9-21). Considering that the Illyrians inhabited the Dalmatian coast before the coming of the Slavs, this fact might seem perfectly normal—the very name of Dalmatia is of Illyrian origin. But to attribute to Milos, which has eventually become so popular a name among the Slavs seems curious. Yet Kostic remarks that the name does not appear in Serbian documents before the 13th century and even then is not used by people of high rank. Kostic argues that Milos may be the Slavized form of the Albanian mir and osh. Kostic links the suffix osh (and ush) to Albanian. He points out that it is added to adjectives; thus bardh-bardhosh; kuq-kuqalosh; vogel-voglush, voglosh. The suffix is also used with names; thus Belush, Tanush, Mirush, etc.
    Obilic’s hypersensitiveness to suspicions expressed by others as to his word of honor (besa), also reveals, in Kostic’s opinion, his Albanian origin. Finally, Kosticc refers to Elezovic who has pointed out the cult professed by the Albanians for Obilic.
    According to Prof. S. Skendi (Balkan Cultural Studies, East European Monographs, Boulder, dif. Columbia Univ., 1980, p. 147, no. 13), M. Budimir has expressed a similar opinion in "Digenis und Marko Kraljevic," Extrait des Actes de 4e Congres international des etudes byzantines (Bul. de l’irist. archeol. bulgare, tome 10, 1936, Sofia, 1936, p. 17. — I have not been able to consult this study.).
    “Albert Lord of Harvard University stated in 1982 that Albanian epic songs about the Battle of Kosovo were not translations of the Serbian epic songs, as was previously thought. Lord argues that the two traditions emerged more or less independent of each other. According to him, major elements of the Albanian tale of the assassination of Sultan Murad cannot be found in the corresponding Serbian accounts, while these elements can be traced to Albanian folklore. The Serbian and the Albanian traditions came into contact in the region of Sandžak, where they were fused.”…(Lord, Albert (1984). “The Battle of Kosovo in Albanian and Serbocroatian Oral Epic Songs”. Studies on Kosova. East European Monographs 155. ISBN 9780880330473)

  2. #22
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    What a bunch of bullshits
    There was no Albanians on Kosovo in middle age.

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    Great Post! Very enlightening.
    Last edited by Div; 10-12-2017 at 11:11 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vožd View Post
    What a bunch of bullshits
    There was no Albanians on Kosovo in middle age.
    Your biggest defense is middle age and 'demographics' from Devshirme tax collection who was carried out solely going by names, those names is true today sound slav/serb but during that time orthodox did carry those names whilst many people in reality had 'slavic' christian names who were Albanian speaking also vlach had those names but were different ethnos, the tax collection in reality were about names who latter on Serb academia lumped all those names into serb ethnos altogether so the picture was clearly in your favor as Islam was not prominent to differ the real demographic make up during that time.

    In prizren alone.
    In 1623, Pjetër Mazreku, who in 1624 succeeded Bizzi as Archbishop of Antivari, reported that the city was populated mostly by Muslims, who numbered 12,000 and were mostly Albanians.[45] The Catholics of the city spoke Albanian and Slavic and 200 of them were Albanians.[45][46] The Orthodox element was composed of 600 Serbs.
    Last edited by The Illyrian Warrior; 10-13-2017 at 12:47 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Illyrian Warrior View Post
    Your biggest defense is middle age and 'demographics' from Devshirme tax collection who was carried out solely going by names, those names is true today sound slav/serb but during that time orthodox did carry those names whilst many people in reality had 'slavic' christian names who were Albanian speaking also vlach had those names but were different ethnos, the tax collection in reality were about names who latter on Serb academia lumped all those names into serb ethnos altogether so the picture was clearly in your favor as Islam was not prominent to differ the real demographic make up during that time.

    In prizren alone.
    1623. is 17th centuty, not middle age. Its ottoman occupacy time.

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    Please, someone from the mods clean this thread from the nonsense posts of this servian member Vožd.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vožd View Post
    1623. is 17th centuty, not middle age. Its ottoman occupacy time.
    In pre ottoman period there was no reliable statistics available to be able to measure ethnic make up of Kosovo (even during Ottomans it was only collection tax stats by names who again had flaws to define real ethnic make up) what is certain from limited documents is that Kosova was not entirely serb, less so holy land as you claim to be, there were three main groups, slavs, albanians, vlachs who lived next to each other.

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