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Thread: Linguistic Prehistory in the Caucasus (and wider area)

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    Default Linguistic Prehistory in the Caucasus (and wider area)

    What is the story behind the distribution of the native languages of the Caucasus? Were the modern families spoken over wider areas at one time? What are their affinities with other languages, ancient and modern?

    I'm no expert, but I've read a little down the years, and am always interested to hear the views of those who know better.

    I was playing about with some maps on my computer, and here's a crude synthesis of much I've read. I know there are some stupid errors, but offer it only as food for thought, and something to prompt further discussion:


    In brief, NEC has been linked to substrata in Anatolia and the western Aegean. NWC has been included in even more surprising theories that suppose an ancient link with Sino-Tibetan! Kartvelian seems not particularly related to anything else. Indo European has been introduced from the east via the Steppes and Iran (Kurdish), as well as from the west through the Balkans and Straits (Armenian, Greek, Galatian, and the relatives of Hittite). Turkic obviously rode in out of Mongolia. Semitic has spread from Arabia.

    Your thoughts?

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    "Native" Languages
    Well, let us start with the fact that all the three language families share a very long common history. Desoite there is no clear proof of overall similarity of the language families they all have Ergativity and use some common rare vowels. These language families seem to have no direct relatives outside their spectrum. Kartvelian family (uniting Svan, Laz, Mingrelian and actual Georgian) has been proposed to have connections either to some long lost predecessor of Indo-European languages or to isolate Mediterranean lingua like Basque. No real connection has been established however. NW-Caucasus (adyghe, abkhaz, ibykh) and NE-Caucasus (Vainakha and Dagestan ones) seem to be more related to each other than Kartvelian family.
    The origins of these languages are indeed very unclear. What we can say though is that they are very old. Languages in each family can be very separated from each other, more so than some Slavic and Germanic tongues among each other. So it is justified to assume that we are indeed dealing with indigenous language families for there is no evidence of any ancient substrat existing in any of them.
    One must also note that some of these rare and exotic languages face danger of extinction. It is true for languages of small nations/tribes of Daghestan (there are actually 26 different people living there) and also somewhat true for Abkhaz, Svan and even Ossetian.

    "Foreign" languages
    Ossetian language (that belongs to Iranic branch of IE family) is additionally interesting as it shows some evolutionary processes influenced by nearby Caucasus languages. It additionally has pre-IE substrat that is probably the most similar to proto-Svan (Kartvelian).
    Turkic languages have two sources - one is Oghuz nomads that have brought it to Azerbaidjan and even to some Dagestani people. Another source is Crimean Tatars that have turkified Balkars and Karachay in NW-Caucasus.
    ARmenian. It was most probably imposed upon Armenians by conquerors from Balkans. The language spoken before was Urartian a relative of Hurrian that are hypothesized to be connected to NE-Caucasus family of languages.
    Last edited by Padre Organtino; 02-02-2012 at 10:38 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Padre Organtino View Post
    "Native" Languages
    Well, let us start with the fact that all the three language families share a very long common history. Desoite there is no clear proof of overall similarity of the language families they all have Ergativity and use some common rare vowels. These language families seem to have no direct relatives outside their spectrum.
    მადლობა for your valuable input! up
    Kartvelian family (uniting Svan, Laz, Mingrelian and actual Georgian) has been proposed to have connections either to some long lost predecessor of Indo-European languages or to isolate Mediterranean lingua like Basque. No real connection has been established however.
    Aye, but people keep trying, especially those enthusiasts who are least qualified... Do you have any personal opinion on 'Vasco-Kartvelian' mega-families? I've seen all manner of crazy trees going back to 'Proto-World' that include such ideas in.

    More interesting for me at least; how do you see the ancient distribution of Kartvelian? Do you think it was spread more to the west in ancient times, or have the Laz spread along the coastline more recently? What about Abkhazia - was it ever just Mingrelian, before NW Caucasians crossed the mountains or came along from Sochi?

    NW-Caucasus (adyghe, abkhaz, ibykh) and NE-Caucasus (Vainakha and Dagestan ones) seem to be more related to each other than Kartvelian family.
    Interesting to hear you say that. Is it just mutual influence from the time when the Alans hadn't pushed up into the hills, rather than genetic common inheritance, though?

    In the 'bolder' long range linguistics models I've read, the authors seem adamant that the divisions are fundamental. Hehe, one even made a Sino-Tibetan link with Circassian!

    I thought the NEC connection with Anatolia was rather more founded, though?
    The origins of these languages are indeed very unclear. What we can say though is that they are very old. Languages in each family can be very separated from each other, more so than some Slavic and Germanic tongues among each other. So it is justified to assume that we are indeed dealing with indigenous language families for there is no evidence of any ancient substrat existing in any of them.
    Ekh, Russky and English split yesterday! Bobra-beaver, vdova-widow, dver'-door...
    One must also note that some of these rare and exotic languages face danger of extinction. It is true for languages of small nations/tribes of Daghestan (there are actually 26 different people living there) and also somewhat true for Abkhaz, Svan and even Ossetian.


    By the way, a bit off topic, can I ask about the Bats/Kisty? What is their present status in Sakartvelo?

    Or that of the Ossets outside of the seceding republic? Trialetian Ossets seem to occupy a considerable area in the 1800s maps, but far less in the modern. Just a few pockets. Compare:


    Have any moved into Russian controlled areas?
    "Foreign" languages
    Ossetian language (that belongs to Iranic branch of IE family) is additionally interesting as it shows some evolutionary processes influenced by nearby Caucasus languages. It additionally has pre-IE substrat that is probably the most similar to proto-Svan (Kartvelian).
    That IS peculiar! I'd always just assumed that the area they occupy now on the northern slopes was formerly the meeting point of Vainakh with Circassian. The stories of the Narts seemed to confirm the greater input of the latter, too.
    Turkic languages have two sources - one is Oghuz nomads that have brought it to Azerbaidjan and even to some Dagestani people. Another source is Crimean Tatars that have turkified Balkars and Karachay in NW-Caucasus.
    What about the ethnonym Balkar then? You see the Crimeans as having Turkicised the native Cherkess? I don't buy that, as I've seen Balkars and they look pretty eastern Asian to me. And their way of life is rather different to that of the Crimeans. I was imagining that the Cherkess had formerly not exploited the higher pasture so much as they could have, and that Turkics from the steppes to the north had moved in to do so.
    ARmenian. It was most probably imposed upon Armenians by conquerors from Balkans. The language spoken before was Urartian a relative of Hurrian that are hypothesized to be connected to NE-Caucasus family of languages.

    I'm wondering about the earlier distributions of these NEC and para-NEC languages especially. Do you see them as having formerly spread further east along the Zagros as well as west to the Aegean?

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    I have been told that the concentration of very distantly-related languages in the Caucasus is due to its being an area where humans settled very early, and from which they dispersed. The explanation is the same as for New Guinea.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Loddfafner View Post
    I have been told that the concentration of very distantly-related languages in the Caucasus is due to its being an area where humans settled very early, and from which they dispersed. The explanation is the same as for New Guinea.
    In some way yes. Though I think that major reason is that this is mountainous region with complicated terrain and lots of isolated valleys.

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    we caucasian speaking people are realated people vainax http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EzqviTXTc

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hOQdx...eature=related megrelian(georgian) laz song
    Last edited by eviline; 02-04-2012 at 12:00 PM.

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    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pgxxkFWdFnM chechen song sings georgian

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    Quote Originally Posted by Padre Organtino View Post
    "Native
    ARmenian. It was most probably imposed upon Armenians by conquerors from Balkans. The language spoken before was Urartian a relative of Hurrian that are hypothesized to be connected to NE-Caucasus family of languages.
    This is a half-truth. I don't want to get into with you Padre, but I will say that it is not as simple saying "they were conquerers", as the Hittites and Hurrians shared a lot of their culture with one another. Are you also then claiming that Hittites were also conquered? Hmm...

    The "People around Ararat" or "People of Urartu" were loose band of Hurrians and IE speaking populations. Most likely the common people spoke a IE language, while for administrative purposes they used cuneiform and a Hurrian based language (Urartu), as the recorded language is very rigid and does not really evolve over the three hundred year period of use. Most, if not all the tablets, are primarily concerned with things related to government, economy, and etc.

    Furthermore, Hurrian is not a NE-Caucasus language. You can argue that the Hurrian language spread there, but the concentration of Hurrian populations, civilization, and culture like the Urartu, Mitani, and etc. centered in the Armenian Highlands.

    Padre, I don't want to argue, as you have stated your opinion. I just want to make it a point that this dynamic of Hittite-Hurrian played an important role in the region. The cultural, linguistic, and genetic continuation of the Hittites and Hurrians can only be found among Armenians. Furthermore, again, if you are claiming that Armenians were "conquered" then you also have to extend the same argument to the Hittites, but we don't see this there, as there is no recorded evidence of such an event.

    Hittites at one point were ruled by Hurrians. Likewise, Hurrians were ruled by Hittites, as there is an Indo-Aryan superstrata in the Mitani (A very Hurrian population). The cultural relationship and dynamic could not have been one of conquerer and conquered. It is more like a mutual amalgam of civilizations.

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    Quote Originally Posted by PBachman View Post
    This is a half-truth. I don't want to get into with you Padre, but I will say that it is not as simple saying "they were conquerers", as the Hittites and Hurrians shared a lot of their culture with one another. Are you also then claiming that Hittites were also conquered? Hmm...
    Padre was clearly talking about languages, not peoples. And peoples are not static sealed entities, but merge and split and change names and languages.

    The Hittites are named from their capital Hattusa, where the Hatti language was formerly spoken. IE was brought there by people calling themselves after their previous capital Kanesa or whatever it was. In such a way, we could call the Hittites 'conquered', albeit with the blood of the 'conquerors' in their veins too. Just like the Armenians.

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