The early Aryans(Indo-Europeans) in India

[Mortimer]

Lol, care to explain how Indians show up as a mixture two primary components (ANI and ASI) of which the latter one has clear and strong connection to West Asian ancestral one? Additionally how can you explain that the closer we get to ME in India the more Caucasoid people look?

Read my Original Post. Read Carefully. I posted a source to a new study where it says "The ANI spread out of India into West Asia and Europe". Also R1a1a is probably Southasian of Origin and highest concetrated there.

[Padre Organtino]

Huh? I've read the article and it says what I have told you. Of course you have ANI as a higher share of your Caucasoid part (if you refer to yourself as an Indian which is quite comical) but that's cause West Asian like Georgians have additionally absorbed Euro inputs. These scholars only disprove the Aryan hypothesis which is indeed not correct - there is very little North Euro component among moder Indians.

[beaver]

They were dark haired and brown eyeded. Meds.

[Artek]

I assume that they were made of depigmented, partially depigmented and not depigmented Aurignacoids with the latter being dominant.

[Pyramidologist]

I do appreciate the sources in the first post, but some errors were made -

The first among Vedic Gods, Indra King of Gods was described as having brown and golden skin.

In the RV 1.65 reads, "SAKRA, who is the purifier (of his worshipers), and well-skilled in horses, who is wonderful and golden-bodied."Rig Veda also reads that Indra "is the dancing god who, clothed in perfumed garments, golden-cheeked rides his golden cart." One passage calls him both brown and yellow."Him with the fleece they purify, brown, golden-hued, beloved of all, Who with exhilarating juice goes forth to all the deities"

You have though missed out the fact Indra is described as blonde (harikesa) in the Rig-Veda. For example John. V. Day in his Indo-European Origins (2001) notes: ''For many, Indra's fair hair and beard point to Aryans or Aryan warriors themselves have fair hair''. On page 115, Day further discusses the relation of Thor to Indra, listing numerous similarities.

In his Indogermanische religionsgeschichte, Friedrich Cornelius (1942) was one of the first scholars to notice that both Thor and Indra both have fair red beards. In the Mahabharata, Indra is described as having a reddish beard (xii. 329. 14.i-ii). Indra's fair beard has been compared to Thor's, furthermore in Old Norse dyja means to ''shake beard'', while in Vedic Sanskrit dhu also means to ''shake'' (Schroder, 1967).

Day provides the following references for a more detailed discussion, ''Indra does resemble the Germanic god Thor, who has a red beard'' cf. Cornelius 1942: 64; Giintert 1934: 77; Schrader 1917-29, I: 633; Schroeder 1923: 180; Vertemont 1997: A4; Winn 1995: 107.

-Rudra was als described as having tawny skin

HYMN XXXIII. Rudra.

5 May I with praise-songs win that Rudra's favour who is adored with gifts and invocations.
Ne’er may the tawny God, fair-checked, and gracious, swifthearing, yield us to this evil purpose.

This is a distortion of the passage. The ''tawny'' here is a reference to his hair colour, a reddish-brown, not skin complexion. Rudra is derived from the Indo- European root *reudh-, "red", and therefore indicates a red haired God.

-Sometimes described as reddish brown like the God Agni.

Hymn 3.1.3 reads of Agni, "Bull, who beholdest men, through many mornings, among the dark ones shine forth red, O Agni."

Its not clear this passage is describing complexion.

- Another important Characteristic of the earliest Brahmins and Aryans in India is Black Hair


Source: Atharva Veda.6.137.2
>> May thy hairs grow as reeds, may they cluster, black, about thy head!


Source: Atharva Veda.6.137.3
>> Brahmins have strong black hair.


Source: Dharma-Sutra 1:2
>> Let him [the Brahmin Priest] kindle the sacrificial fire while his hair is still black

And yet we have sources claiming the Brahmin were blonde. Pantanjali (fl. 150 BC) describes the hair of the Brahmins as golden (Mahabhashya, ii. 2. 6).

[Mortimer]

I do appreciate the sources in the first post, but some errors were made -



You have though missed out the fact Indra is described as blonde (harikesa) in the Rig-Veda. For example John. V. Day in his Indo-European Origins (2001) notes: ''For many, Indra's fair hair and beard point to Aryans or Aryan warriors themselves have fair hair''. On page 115, Day further discusses the relation of Thor to Indra, listing numerous similarities.

In his Indogermanische religionsgeschichte, Friedrich Cornelius (1942) was one of the first scholars to notice that both Thor and Indra both have fair red beards. In the Mahabharata, Indra is described as having a reddish beard (xii. 329. 14.i-ii). Indra's fair beard has been compared to Thor's, furthermore in Old Norse dyja means to ''shake beard'', while in Vedic Sanskrit dhu also means to ''shake'' (Schroder, 1967).

Day provides the following references for a more detailed discussion, ''Indra does resemble the Germanic god Thor, who has a red beard'' cf. Cornelius 1942: 64; Giintert 1934: 77; Schrader 1917-29, I: 633; Schroeder 1923: 180; Vertemont 1997: A4; Winn 1995: 107.

Indra is Blonde because he dyes his hair and beard with soma(a yellow tawny colour)

This is a distortion of the passage. The ''tawny'' here is a reference to his hair colour, a reddish-brown, not skin complexion. Rudra is derived from the Indo- European root *reudh-, "red", and therefore indicates a red haired God.

It indicates his skin tone because in same breath it says "oh tawny fair complexioned god".

Its not clear this passage is describing complexion.

Yes it is.

And yet we have sources claiming the Brahmin were blonde. Pantanjali (fl. 150 BC) describes the hair of the Brahmins as golden (Mahabhashya, ii. 2. 6).

Can you please provide the text in english translation. Thanks.

[Osweo]

The Aryan invasion was far from the only western eruption into the Subcontinent, by the way. I've heard a lot of linguists argue that Dravidian likewise may have come from the west, brought by more 'Mediterranoid' types.

I picture the Aryans as some sort of Afghan/Tajik looking types (with all the internal variation that entails), but don't imagine them encountering a fully australoid racial situation. India will already have been varied with more Europoid types present.

I will not discuss any 'Out of India' theories, by the way. That's just too stupid to bother debating.

[Mortimer]

The Aryan invasion was far from the only western eruption into the Subcontinent, by the way. I've heard a lot of linguists argue that Dravidian likewise may have come from the west, brought by more 'Mediterranoid' types.

I picture the Aryans as some sort of Afghan/Tajik looking types (with all the internal variation that entails), but don't imagine them encountering a fully australoid racial situation. India will already have been varied with more Europoid types present.

I will not discuss any 'Out of India' theories, by the way. That's just too stupid to bother debating.

The pre-Vedic(Aryan) Civilization was very advanced (Harappa-Indus Valley etc.). I doubt that Australoids at any time played an important role in Indian Civilization because they are hunter gatherers today and not Huge Temple Builders, but everything is possible.

[Mercury]

A new study has revealed that Indians belonging to higher castes are genetically closer to Europeans than are individuals from lower castes, whose genetic profiles are closer to those of Asians.


The study compared genetic markers—located on the Y chromosome and the mitochondrial DNA—between 265 Indian men of various castes and 750 African, Asian, European and other Indian men. To broaden the study, 40 markers from chromosomes 1 to 22 were analyzed from more than 600 individuals from different castes and continents. The comparison of the markers among these groups confirmed that genetic similarities to Europeans increased as caste rank increased.

The study, led by Michael Bamshad of the University of Utah, in Salt Lake City, and his colleagues, is reported to be the most comprehensive genetic analysis to date of the impact of European migrations on the structure and origin of the current Indian population. The article appears in the current issue of Genome Research.

The caste system, defined in ancient Sanskrit texts, determines a person's rank in society: The Brahmin, who were traditionally priests and scholars, held the highest rank in Hindu society. Warriors and rulers made up the Kshatriya who were the next in line to the Brahmin. Merchants, traders, farmers, and artisans were the third caste called the Vysya. The Shudra were the fourth rank and consisted of laborers. Because of strict rules forbidding marriage between men and women of different castes, these four classes remained distinct for thousands of years.

Bamshad's team found that Y chromosomes from the Brahmin and Kshatriya closely resembled European Y chromosomes rather than Asian Y chromosomes. The Y chromosomes from the lower castes bore more similarities to the Asian Y chromosome. The mitochondrial DNA showed the same pattern.

The authors believe their results support the notion that Europeans who migrated into India between 3,000 and 8,000 years ago may have merged with or imposed their social structure on the native northern Indians and placed themselves into the highest castes.

Analysis of the paternally transmitted Y chromosome among Indians in general indicated that the Y chromosome had a more European flavor. Maternally inherited mitochondrial DNA among Indians is more Asian than European. This suggests that the Europeans who entered India were predominantly male.

http://www.genomenewsnetwork.org/art...European.shtml

It's very possible, in fact likely, that there were several waves of pre-aryan invasions/migrations into India. Many of these migrants could have been Europid.

Indians not descendant of "Aryans" [but "Aryans" descendant of Indians??]

What does that even mean? I hope you're not one of those people that think Indo-European languages and people originated in India.

[Osweo]

The pre-Vedic(Aryan) Civilization was very advanced (Harappa-Indus Valley etc.). I doubt that Australoids at any time played an important role in Indian Civilization because they are hunter gatherers today and not Huge Temple Builders, but everything is possible.

Harappa is surely Dravidian.

As for the australoids, well, they were obviously more widespread in the very ancient past, long before ANYONE was building temples. They probably survived in a few pockets here and there in the north in those later times, though.

Once you get into the Ganges area, you have to be thinking about the Munda substratum. I heard there's even some influence from these languages (like those of Cambodia in modern times) in classical Sanskrit, if only in words for local flora and fauna. I suppose their physical types will have had more of the infantilising SE Asian to their look?