Finnic Curonians?

[The Ripper]

This topic was has resurfaced now and again here on TA, as a tangent of different disputes. Personally I've always assumed that the general consensus was that the Curonians were Balts, and I've always dismissed Finnic theories as belonging to the same scrap heap as the theories that posit for example the Slavic Wends as Finnic.

But since Karl is of the opinion that there are real historical grounds for his thesis, I invite you to present well-argumented and sourced claims for either position, and what better place for it than the Academic Baltic Finnish Society, which also includes Latvian members. I do this purely in the interest of educating myself at your expense.

Anyway, fire at will.

P.S. This social forum being the love-child of my over-abundant leisure time, I will expect proper decorum and respect from all sides, towards all sides.

[Waidewut]

As much as I understood from Karl, he doesn't object the Baltic origin of the Curonians.
He objects the fact that the pirates pillaging Sweden proper, Gotland and Danish isles were of Baltic origin.

If the Curonian vikings were Finnic, I have a hard time believing ancient Scandinavian chroniclers all decided to rename the Livonians, with whom they were supposed to have had close interaction, as the recent immigrants Baltic-Curonians, with whom according to Karl they had little to none interaction.

[The Ripper]

I re-read that wiki article about the Curonians. It does mention Curonians moving north, merging with and assimilating Livonians.

Also, their king is named as Lammechinus Rex in the Chronicle of Livonia, which to my eyes seems rather close to the Finnic Lemminkäinen - Lembitu, etc.

[The Ripper]

Finnish wikipedia claims that the term "Curonians" was used for two peoples: the Finnic Livonians and Baltic Curonians who inhabited Curonia or Courland.

The source it provides for this is Baltian historia. Vilho Niitemaa ja Kalervo Hovi. Helsinki: , 1991. ISBN 951-30-911-0.

It goes on to say that after being initially made to pay tribute to vikings, Curonia was later invaded by Livonians, who came to form the upper class of Curonia. The source for this is Marija Gimbutas: The Balts before the Dawn of History, but at least the link provided in the sources does not mention any Livonian invasion. To the contrary, the English wiki article claims that

During the late Iron Age, the Curonians started to move from southern Courland to the north, assimilating a Finno-Ugric people who lived in the coastal regions of northern Courland. They then formed a new ethnic group, the so-called Curonised Livonians.

..but provides no citation!

Another interesting point in the Finnish wiki article is the list of Curonian counties, as named by Henry of Latvia:

• Vannema
• Sagere
• Esestva
• Dovzare
• Ceclis

Vannema is undoubtedly a Finnic name. Finnish wiki proposes Vanhamaa, "Old Land".

The Finnish wiki article on the Livonians claims that there were two Livonian Counties in Curonia Venema and Ventava. The source for this as well is Niitemaa. Citing the aforementioned source, it also says that Livonians inhabited the coast sporadically all the way down to Memel! It also mentions joint attacks of Curonians, i.e. of both Curonians Balts and Curonian Livonians against the crusaders.

An interesting topic! It does seem, that around the time of the Northern Crusades, there is some ambiguity between the Finnic vs. Baltic identity of the ancient Curonians.

It seems that as (Baltic) Curonians pushed north (as they were pushed by expanding slavs) and mingled with Livonians in the north, the term Curonian could apply to either the Livonian or Baltic-Curonian inhabitants, or some combination of both. Of course, the Baltic Curonians inhabited a greater stretch of the coast of Courland and their main centre is named as Grobin, which is far from the Livonian areas, and would have been pre-dominantly Curonian for several centuries before the Northern Crusades and the Golden Age of "Estonian Vikings" or "Latvian Vikings".

In conclusion to this lengthy post, I'll say that from what I've been able to gather from the most accessible of sources, is that while it is entirely unfair of Karl to hog all the glory of the fierce Curonian warriors (that we can read about in the chronicles of their trembling neighbours), there is a strong Finnic component, especially in the north of Courland, in the form of the Livonians. And it can perhaps be assumed that there was even some ethnocultural fluidity between the groups as the Livonians gradually merged into Curonians. Heaven forbid!

But I'll be looking into this topic, it has awakened my interest.

[Waidewut]

I am surprised how poor the internet about this topic is, at least in Latvian.
I can't find nothing more about the Finnic origin of the Curonians than Ripper in his last post.

But I can prove precisely Gotland has noticeable Baltic genetic influence (Curonian settlers?).

In Southern Sweden with an LWb frequency of 0.3%, the Baltic influence appeared slight, while in the population of the Swedish island Gotland in the middle of the Baltic Sea there was a significantly increased LWb frequency of 1.0% compared with that of Western European countries.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10364680

Gotland is often mentioned having good relationships with the Curonians, unlike Denmark, thus some settling might have occurred.

[The Ripper]

Marija Gimbutas discusses the possibility of a Curonian colony on Gotland in the link I provided in my previous post.

Anyway, this topic has captured my interest to the extent that as I researched it online last night, I also ordered two of the books most often cited as sources in the Finnish Wikipedia: Baltian Historia by Niitemaa and Hovi, and Valkoisen hiekan kansa - Liiviläisten historiaa ja kulttuuria by Edgar Vaalgamaa. I'll be judging the validity of the research shortly.

[The Ripper]

Edgar Vaalgamaa arrived yesterday. An interesting read as far as I can gather. The prologue alone was quite interesting. I skimmed through the most relevant chapters shedding light on the issue of Livonian-Curonian identity during the late iron age. Vaalgamaa quite clearly confirms that the Curonian-Balts were more active in trade and pillage than their Livonian neighbours to the North. Livonia did experience a period of wealth and prosperity due to its location in the proximity of important trade routes. He does raise the issue of "Curonian" sometimes being used by German and Scandinavian sources to denote Livonians of Curonia, and gives some examples where Missionaries have gone to "baptize Curonians" - in completely Livonian areas of Curonia. It seems to confirm that Livonians were not in any dominant position in Curonia as a whole, and that the Baltic Curonians, with ties to the Old Prussians, were a more active and important player at the time.

[stemm99]

There are several sources from those times describing joint attacks of curonians, livs and oselians either against enemy overseas or against german invaders and they specificly distinguish curonians and livs as separate groups. So this theory is complete garbage basically...