Germanics versus Moors

[Catrau]

Why do many people demonizes the Germanic invaders usually referred to as barbarians and on the other hand cherish the Moorish invaders?
Why many things are said about the Moorish legacy and nothing about the Germanic legacy?
How these two invasions can be compared? Are there common features?
The truth is that none of these invasions left any very important legacy. For the start the Germanic invasions brought immigrants, hordes of ruthless bloody “vandals” that sow havoc among locals continuing the same attitude they took when they crossed nowadays France and Spain. They didn’t work, didn’t create wealth, when food lacked they pillaged villages and towns. On the other hand they left us almost 20% of our total genetic mixture, very small area properties north of the Tagus river, a few churches with visigothic influence namely through very peculiar friezes, some names and some toponymy.

The Moorish invasion wasn’t a migration, it was was mainly a military occupation but on the contrary to what is usually thought their presence north of the Tagus was never a certainty, the ravages coming from Christian north never gave peace to the invaders and the Tagus has been the real frontier on most of the first 300 years of occupation. On the other hand, south of the Tagus and especially on the lower Alentejo and the Algarve, Moorish culture flourished for almost 550 years yet there are no signs of those days, apparently the typical chimneys and the terraces over the Algarve houses, some castles rebuild after de Reconquista, some words about commerce and agriculture, toponymy and a higher than usual percent of E3b Y haplogroup genetic marker in that population (about 4 - 7% of the total population) is what was left of those days. No architecture, no signs on the ground.
Is it lawful to say that Germanics were a part of an inferior culture by comparison to the later hispano-roman culture? Were the moors the heralds of a new and civilized world?
What your opinion on this issue?

Moorish terraces and Chimneys of the Algarve




Mértola castle and equestrian statue of Abu Al-Qasim Ibn Qasi or "Leader Abu son of Cassius" (being Cassius a Latin anthroponymy because he was an Iberic muslim, as most of them). Ibn Cassi was a Christian converted to Islam, he was governor of Mértola and established an independent taifa kingdom in the lower Alentejo and in the Algarve. He was murdered because he signed a peace treaty with our first king Afonso Henriques. He was a sufist, a contemplative current of Islam and to him is due the construction of the mystic ribat al-Rihana (Ribat of Arrifana) that have not been found yet.



Visigothic friezes in São Torcato church (Guimarães)



and in São Gião church (Nazaré)

[Damião de Góis]

I think on a general note, people don't care much about either germanics or moors, and for many our history starts only in 1143. In my personal opinion, i think the Moors actually brought us more useful things than the Germanics did. You said "some" words about commerce and agriculture but they are actually quite a few.

On the other hand, south of the Tagus and especially on the lower Alentejo and the Algarve, Moorish culture flourished for almost 550 years yet there are no signs of those days, apparently the typical chimneys and the terraces over the Algarve houses, some castles rebuild after de Reconquista, some words about commerce and agriculture, toponymy and a higher than usual percent of E3b Y haplogroup genetic marker in that population (about 4 - 7% of the total population) is what was left of those days. No architecture, no signs on the ground.

Funnily enough, E3b is highest in the northwest of the peninsula, which includes northern Portugal and not really in southern Portugal. In any case, the legacy is probably higher in Algarve than in Alentejo. Let's compare the coat of arms of Évora and Portimão:

Évora



Portimão

[Catrau]

Do you know who are those heads? are they moorish?? They don't look Moorish.

[Damião de Góis]

Do you know who are those heads? are they moorish?? They don't look Moorish.

Yes they are, other towns in Alentejo have that kind of symbology:

Santiago do Cacém:

[Catrau]

Santiago do Cacém:

Holy shit, this one is kind of bloody, to say the least. Bloody grounds under a blue sky and Moorish heads rolling on the ground...

This one is the northern one I know with Moorish symbology. It's Celorico da Beira coat of arms, well into Beira.

It shows two city legends, in one the "stars and the moon over the castle" symbolizes a combat victory over the moors under a starry and moonlight night and the other the "eagle carrying a trout" symbolizes the legend of an eagle carrying trout to feed the people when the castle was put under siege in a northern drive by the moors.

[Damião de Góis]

Holy shit, this one is kind of bloody, to say the least. Bloody grounds under a blue sky and Moorish heads rolling on the ground...

Well, i know about it because it's my mother's home town

Évora is the most graphic one i know. Having severed heads as the city symbol is not normal i think.

[Alvarado]

"Germânicos contra berberes" é também o título de um artigo polêmico de José Antonio Primo de Rivera. O texto é uma merda na minha opinião, mas tem passagens engraçadas.

Este é o artigo, se alguém estiver interessado.

http://plataforma2003.org/ocja/html/...ermanicos.html

[Riki]

Mértola castle and equestrian statue of Abu Al-Qasim Ibn Qasi or "Leader Abu son of Cassius" (being Cassius a Latin anthroponymy because he was an Iberic muslim, as most of them). Ibn Cassi was a Christian converted to Islam, he was governor of Mértola and established an independent taifa kingdom in the lower Alentejo and in the Algarve. He was murdered because he signed a peace treaty with our first king Afonso Henriques. He was a sufist, a contemplative current of Islam and to him is due the construction of the mystic ribat al-Rihana (Ribat of Arrifana) that have not been found yet.

That's the good thing with our History.
You always learn something new.
I had no knowledge of the Ribat of Arrifana)

[Riki]

Ponta da Atalaia. Aljezur. Costa Vicentina (Portugal)

Os trabalhos arqueológicos que têm vindo a decorrer na Ponta da Atalaia em Aljezur, puseram a descoberto o Ribat da Arrifana, que, segundo documentos desde o Séc. XII, indicam a sua localização no Ocidente Peninsular, mais propriamente na Costa de Aljezur.
O Ribat, único até hoje conhecido no nosso País e o segundo da Península Ibérica, é um convento--fortaleza, constituído por uma sucessão de mesquitas com oratórios (mirab) , onde os monges--guerreiros faziam as suas orações, assim como, dependências destinadas, tanto aos monges como aos peregrinos.
Este convento -- fortaleza teria sido mandado edificar pelo mestre Sufi Ibn Qasi, cerca de 1125 e foi abandonado em 1151, com a morte do seu fundador.
É um local mítico do património histórico-cultural do Al-Andalus, cuja identificação só agora foi possível fazer. O Ribat da Arrifana traduz, de modo exemplar o pensamento religioso de Ibn Qasi, dada a sua localização junto ao mar.
Na extremidade da Ponta da Atalaia, escavou-se, talvez, a mais importante mesquita deste complexo religioso do Séc. XII. Trata-se de um espaço murado, integrando muro de orações e minarete, torre de onde os fiéis eram chamados, pelo menos cinco vezes ao dia, às orações.
Durante os trabalhos arqueológicos tem sido encontrado diverso espólio, nomeadamente cerâmicas de vários usos, artefactos metálicos, caixa amuleto com decoração, etc.
O Ribat da Arrifana ocupa vasta área da actual Ponta da Atalaia, estando o mesmo a despertar a atenção de vários historiadores, que têm visitado o local e acompanhado os trabalhos arqueológicos. Os referidos trabalhos têm vindo a decorrer sob a responsabilidade cientifica dos professores Rosa Varela Gomes e Mário Varela Gomes da Universidade Nova de Lisboa -- Faculdade de Ciências Sociais e Humanas, com o apoio da Câmara Municipal de Aljezur e da Associação de Defesa do Património Histórico e Arqueológico de Aljezur.
O Ribat da Arrifana é hoje um dos mais importantes casos de arqueologia Ibérica e Europeia, sendo para Aljezur um marco importantíssimo do seu património histórico e cultural que urge promover, desenvolver e salvaguardar. O da Arrifana encontra-se presentemente em processo de classificação pelo IGESPAR, I.P.

[2Cool]

Well for one the Germanic tribes defeated the Romans and were seen as the barbarians. Basically their civilization was seen as inferior as the one left by the Romans. When they came they adopted Roman customs as well so they didn't leave that big of an impact in the Peninsula imo. They were also pretty disorganized and got defeated my the Moors rather quickly so there's nothing really to be proud of there. The Moors however stayed longer and more long lasting impact on the Peninsula. Not to mention that Cordoba was the most advanced city in Europe (as far as I know) and Al-Andalus was one of the major cultural and scientific pillars of the Islamic civilization and golden age. So it's only natural that people would be interested with a more successful legacy.