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Athens at the moment. Why?Originally Posted by Milenko
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just curious =) never been to Athens, but heard it is a very beautiful city, hope to visit it some day
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Do you have any source for this?
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Most Greeks have fled to Greece, in 1922 (Smyrne Catastrophe) and earlier (some Pontic Greeks) , and the Greek speaking (and some Turkish) speaking Orthodox , mostly from anatolia and Pontus only fled after the Treaty of Lausanne and population exchange.
So the population exchange of ''Orthodox and Muslims'' only involved around 190.000 Greeks or ''Orthodox''
Also, from the remaining ''orthodox'' let's say that they were ''Hellinized'' of unknown origin or just Orthodox.Okay?
Those who returned to Greek, were those who followed the Greek Orthodox church. But there were still Christians Orthodoxes that followed the Bulgarian Church, the Serbian and the Armenian.
Although of course not all of them were Greeks or even fully Greeks, I wonder why a Greek would follow Armenian or Bulgarian Church and a Armenian or Bulgarian would follow the Greek, etc?
So, the 1,3 million of ''Anatolians'' does't mean that this 1,3 million was of non-Greeks. Of course it included non-Greeks, but not as alien as some people want to say....
I guess you haven't see the hordes of the tourists who are doing everything to sleep with a Greek male.
They defenately have a reputation
Noone tries to ''resemble'' someone.
Greeks don't use olive oil to their hair, thats sure, and Greeks are more gentle and less ''I fuck everything that moves'' than Italian. They are more polite as well. And classy.
Personal opinion.
Of course respected, but always disagreehttp://bg.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%93%...B0%D0%BD%D0%B8Гъркомани (ед. ч. гъркоманин, гъркоманка; на македонска литературна норма: гркомани, на румънски: grecomani, на албански: grekomani, на сръбски: гркомани) е термин, който се използва в България, Република Македония, Румъния, Албания и други страни за хора с български, влашки или албански етнически произход, от областите Македония, Тракия и Епир, които се смятат за част от гръцката нация (синоним на гърчеещи се) или за хора с българско национално съзнание, които след появата на Българската екзархия и обявяването на българската църква за схизматична остават верни на Цариградската патриаршия.
При първата употреба терминът е равнозначен на използваните в Гърция термини славяногласни гърци или гърци славофони (Σλαβόφωνοι Έλληνες), албаногласни гърци (арванитите) и влахогласни гърци (власите), по аналогия на туркогласните гърци — караманлиите. Термините възникват в Гърция в средата на 19 век. Поне до 40-те години на 19 в. това, което в българската историография се нарича “погърчване” на интелигенцията, до известна степен съвпадало с поевропейчването.[1] Както французите след Френската революция се опитвали да разпространят по цяла Европа култура, която те смятали за универсална, а не етнически френска, така гъркофонните ромеи разпространявали същата универсална (френска) култура по Балканите. Тази европейска култура била толкова чужда на гръцкия селянин, колкото и на българския и поради това рум милетът бил подложен на процеси на разпад. От 40-те години по целия полуостров започнала трескава дейност на т. н. “етнически активисти”, чийто цел била разрушаването на рум миллета и трансформирането на езиковите общности в нации. Гърците сменили споделената от останалите балканци източноправославна, патриаршистка идентичност[2] с несподелимата елинска мегали идея, а българите поели към изграждане на булгар миллет.
Първоначално терминът за "славяногласните гърци" е българогласни гърци (βουλγαρόφωνοι Έλληνες), но към края на века се променя на славяногласни, за да се прекъсне връзката с появилата се в 1878 година българската национална държава. В някои британски източници при аналогична употреба се използва Hellenized Bulgars (погърчени или елинизирани българи), в отличие от гърци и българи, а българското гъркомани (Grecomanes) се предава като местен термин.[3]
Гъркоманията е плод на високия статус, който гръцката култура има сред православното население на Балканите, на идентификацията между религиозната и националната идентичност, а към края на 19 и началото на 20 век - и на целенасочената гръцка национална пропаганда в Македония и Тракия. През този период гъркоманията в Македония е свързана както с емоционална привързаност към гръцката култура, така и с прагматически съображения относно възможностите областта да бъде присъединена към Гърция.[4]
Писмо от гръцката община във Владово от 18 февруари 1904 година, заявяващо нейния елинизъм.
Михаил Думбалаков пише:
„ Говорещи на чист български език, без да знаят нито дума гръцки, тези погърчени българи, каквито бяха всъщност героичните андарти, бяха по-опасни от чистите гърци. Жертва на ловката и хитростна пропаганда на лукавите елини, тия родоотстъпници премного бяха проляли света българска кръв...[5] “
Днес почти всички албано и влахоговорещи в Гърция имат гръцко национално съзнание. Значителна част от българоговорещото християнско малцинство в северна Гърция също има гръцко национално съзнание, тоест може да определи като гъркоманско. Терминът гъркоманин в Гърция няма негативното значение на национален предател, с което е натоварен в България и Република Македония и е тълкуван като маниакален грък, тоест като беззаветно предан на елинизма човек.
Второто значение на термина гъркоман - човек предан на Цариградската патриаршия, е равнозначно на патриаршист. Двете употреби често се сливат и в България, и в Гърция. Но трябва да се има предвид, че макар всички гъркомани да са патриаршисти, не всички партиаршисти са имали гръцко национално чувство. Гръцката наука в повечето случаи слага знак за равенство между патриаршист и грък.
Според турското списание „Тюрк Хаяти“:
„ ... болшинството от християнското население в Македония бе българско. Патриаршията наистина държеше под свое влияние много български села и почти цялото население смяташе за гърци, обаче то бе българско, говореше български и почти нищо не разбираше от гръцките молитви[6]... “
В България и Република Македония, когато терминът гъркомани се използва самостоятелно, почти винаги става въпрос за българоговорещи (съответно „македоноговорещи“) гъркомани, а в останалите случаи се пояснява - власи гъркомани или албанци гъркомани. В Румъния и Албания е обратно - самостоятелната употреба означава власи гъркомани или албанци гъркомани.
При борбите между Цариградската патриаршия и Българската екзархия, и между четите на Вътрешната македоно-одринска революционна организация и Гръцката въоръжена пропаганда в Македония, много села неколкократно преминават от екзархията към патриаршията и обратно, което допълнително усложнява казуса. Артър Евънс пише:
„ Един от най-комичните резултати от тази конкурентна етнография е картата, публикувана преди няколко години под егидата на Атина и разпространявана в тази страна. Според нея, Македония за практически цели е разделена на две части - на гръцка и „българогласна гръцка“ - като че ли някои келт ентусиаст трябва да раздели Британия на уелска и „англоезично уелска“! Македония наистина е пълна с изкуствени разграничения, истинските линии на етническите граници непрекъснато се пресичат от класификации, основани на религиозната принадлежност (за момента) към гръцкия патриарх или към българския екзарх. Българско село може за политически цели да бъде подкупено или принудено да приеме върховенството на Православната гръцка църква. Жителите на селото след това са самодоволно описани от тези, които извършват тяхното духовна прехвърляне (като „духовно“ не означава нищо), като надеждата на Гърция. Но тези изкуствени придобивки не стигат твърде далеч. Езикът на селяните остава български, както и дълбоките и подсъзнателни инстинкти на расата се държат само на временно напрежение[7].
You can find some Slavophone "Greek" to translate this for you.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Konstantinos_ChristouKonstantinos or "Kottas" Christou (Greek: Κωνσταντίνος Χρήστου, Bulgarian/Macedonian: Константин Христов Саровски, Konstantin Hristov Sarovski, also known as Capetan Kottas) was an insurgent leader associated first with the pro-Bulgarian Internal Macedonian Revolutionary Organization (IMRO) and later with pro-Greek irregular fighters during the Greek struggle for Macedonia. He was born in the village of Rulja (Greek Ρούλια / Roulia, Macedonian Slavic: Руља, now known as Kottas) in Florina Prefecture in 1863. He was president of Roulia, from 1893 to 1896. He revolted against Ottomans, at 1898 and killed four local officers of the Ottoman Empire. Later, he was one of the first leaders of the Macedonian struggle.
Konstantinos Christou participated initially at the IMRO movement against the Ottoman Empire. When he realised that he was deceived and he ascertained for the real purposes of the Bulgarians (which directed the IMRO)[1] relatively to the Macedonians (Greeks), he diversified. The day that Marko [2], ordered K. Christou to kill a Greek patriarchic priest, Konstantinos Christou decided to join the Greeks. That day, he loathed the Bulgarians and started to fight them[3]. He was sentenced to death by IMRO twice - both times for murders of IMRO members. He had been accused also with the pretence of theft. IMRO upended him twice, in order to murder him. Then he tried to communicate with bishop of Kastoria, Germanos Karavangelis, in order to organize the struggle against Internal Macedonian Revolutionary Organization. His mission was to kill the IMRO leader Lazar Poptraykov and other leaders, in order to protect the Greek civilians. Bishop funded his troop.[4] Gotse Delchev had repeatedly pardoned and vainly tried to reform, Kottas before he was finally outlawed by the IMRO, after which he had entered the service of the Greek Bishop. At the time of the Ilinden Rising, when all old wrongs were forgiven and forgotten in the name of the common struggle, Kottas, too, had been received back into the Organization, ironically enough, mainly thanks to the insistence of the same voivode — Lazar Poptraykov. During the Rising, Poptraikov had been wounded and had taken refuge with Kottas, who had then repaid the voivoda’s magnanimity by murdering him and presenting his head to the Greeks.[5] However the bishop was considered to be wary of him on account of his mother tongue, which was slavic and his hatred to the Ottomans. His behavior towards the Ottomans was an obstruct to the Greek tactic, because many times, it was necessary to co-operate with the Ottoman officers against the Bulgarian enemy[6].
However Kottas, was a veteran klepht. In reality, the klephts or hajduks of were as much guerrilla fighters against the Ottoman rule, as they were bandits and highwaymen, who preyed also on local merchants and travellers. He kidnapped Petko Yanev, a Bulgarian recently returned from America, and tortured him and his family until he had extracted all the savings, which Yanev had brought. Yanev, however, complained vigorously to the vali, to Hilmi Pasha himself, and to the foreign consuls. The British consul pressed the vali to act, and eventually Captain Kottas, was arrested by the Ottomans.[7] He was executed by hanging in 1905 at At Pazar in Bitola. After his death, a lot of volunteers from free Greece came to Macedonia to participate in the struggle, beside the locals.[8] He has surviving descendants in Greece today. He believed in the co-operation between Greeks and Bulgarians against Turks. He used to say: "The difficult part is to kill the bear first, and then, it is easy to share the skin."
His last words before hanging, in his native Lower Prespa dialect, were "Zhivja Gritsja. Slovoda ili smrt!" ("Long Live Greece, Freedom or Death!").[9
That's why some Bulgarian members here state that Northern Greeks are Bulgarians in denial and they are not that far from the truth.
Last edited by morski; 02-25-2012 at 01:29 PM.
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Oh, okay, its beautiful, like every place in Greecebut you should be really pick in which places of Athens you ll visit as it also have many trashy areas
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that's not true , one my ex-girlfriend have sicilians origin and pred. east-med and she is not hairy , and i've seen even some britts nordish girl who are hairy
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the best thing is to see everthing not onely the good places, even the bad so u can get the hole picture of the citys or places that some one visits ImoOh, okay, its beautiful, like every place in Greece
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Why don't you find me one to trasnlate it, since they are supposed to be so many?
Well, that's it. Northern Greeks are Bulgarians in denial, Eastern Greeks are Turks in denial and Western Greeks are Albanians in denial.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Konstantinos_Christou
That's why some Bulgarian members here state that Northern Greeks are Bulgarians in denial and they are not that far from the truth.
Probably Cretans are Egyptians in denial,too.
Actually, no, there are no Greeks at all.
Capetan Kottas story, means that most , if not only all Nothern Greeks, are Bulgarians.
(yes, my post is ironical).
I will quote my post again in case you didn't read..
What I am reading is the one that ... hurts my eyes..
Now, on a serious note,this inferiority complex is really hilarious in start, but is getting tiresome after a bit.
You know, I read here all these time ''You are Bulgarians in denial'', ''You are Turks in denial'' or ''You are Albanians in denial'' ...
(guess what, only by Albos, Bulgarians and Turks or Fyromians)
Why ONLY those are claiming that we are ''that'' in denial?
I mean, if anything, Greeks have been living together, or under Romans/Italians way more than any other of our neighbors (ancient years, Roman empire / eastern Roman empire / Venetian Rule) , which is actually millenioums, and if anything, the bigger mixing out of any other nation have been with them, yet NO Italian claims '' You are Italians in denial ''....
And while YOU as well have lived together with Greeks so many years, neither any Greek claims '' You are Greeks in denial'' , especially when Greece have so heavily influenced the area..
You know what? Because neither Italians nor Greeks have so many inferiority complex and trying to underestimate the rest.
Sorry if that offends you, but the BS is getting tiresome, and if this was a joke, its just not funny anymore.. After 50 times, its getting simply tiresome.
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There is no such thing as Northern Greeks are Bulgarians IN DENIAL and vice versa.(God I am shocked how people write in English).In fact,I can't understand what is this obsession about this word.There are similarities around the borders and sub-types may overlap,but that does not mean that people living in a particular country have different ethnicities.It is true that those lands were Bulgarian for while,so what?Bulgaria was under Turkish rule for 5 centuries,dos that make us all Turks?(of course there are left overs from the Turks- The Bulgarian Turks and the intermarriages of Bulgarians with Turks)
Last edited by Europa; 02-25-2012 at 02:03 PM.
"Човек дори и добре да живее умира и друг се ражда, но оставя това което е съградил."
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Kottas wasn't the only Grecoman, they were in the tens of thousands at least. Even in my own family there were Grecomans as I have stated previously.Why don't you find me one to trasnlate it, since they are supposed to be so many?
Well, that's it. Northern Greeks are Bulgarians in denial, Eastern Greeks are Turks in denial and Western Greeks are Albanians in denial.
Probably Cretans are Egyptians in denial,too.
Actually, no, there are no Greeks at all.
Capetan Kottas story, means that most , if not only all Nothern Greeks, are Bulgarians.
(yes, my post is ironical).
I will quote my post again in case you didn't read..
Now here is the translation I made for you(because I like you so much):
Grecomans is a term used in Bulgaria, FYROM, Romania, Albania and other countries for people of Bulgarian, Vlach or Albanian ethnic origin from the regions of Macedonia, Thrace or Epir, who consider themselves to be part of the Greek nation or for people with Bulgarian national consciousness who after the establishment of the Bulgarian Exarchy and the making of the Bulgarian church schismatic decided to remain loyal to the Constantinople Patriarchy.
In the first sense the term is equal with the Greek terms Slavophone Greeks (Σλαβόφωνοι Έλληνες), Albanian speaking Greeks (Arvanites) and Vlach speaking Greeks analogous with Turkish speaking Greeks - Karamanlii. Those terms appeared in Greece in the middle of the XIX c. Until the 40s of the XIX c. the tendency called in Bulgarian historiography Hellenization of the intelligentsia overlapped to some extent with the tendency of Europeanisation. In a similar way to the French who after the French Revolution tried to spread throughout Europe a culture which they considere to be universal and not ethnic French the Grecophone Romaioi were spreading universal (French) culture in the Balkans. This European culture was as alien to the Greek peasant as it was alien to the Bulgarian one and therefor the Rum millet was subjected to a disintegration process. From the 40s onward in the whole peninsula began a fervent work of the so called "ethnic activists" whose aim was the destruction of the old Rum millet and the transformation of the language communities into nations. The Greeks changed the common, shared by the rest of the Balkanians Eastern Orthodox, patriarchist identity with the unshareable Hellenic Megali idea, while the Bulgarians started the building of the Bulgar millet.
At first the term designated for the "Slavophone Greeks" is Bulgarophone Greeks (βουλγαρόφωνοι Έλληνες), but at the end ot the century it was changed to Slavophone in order to sever the ties with the newly created in 1878 Bulgarian national state. In some British sources as a synonim is used Hellenized Bulgars in a distinction to Greeks and Bulgarians, while the Bulgarian term Grecomans is also given as a local term.
The Grecomania is a direct result of the high status the Greek culture had among the Orthodox populations of the Balkans, the identification of the religios with the national identity and at the end of the XIX and the begining of the XX c.- the purposive Greek national propaganda in Macedonia and Thrace. In this period Grecomanism in Macedonia is tied to emotional attachment to Greek culture as well as pragmatic considerations with regard to the possibilities of Greek annexation of the region.
Mihail Dumbalakov wrote:
Speaking pure Bulgarian language, without knowing a single Greek word, those Hellenized Bulgarians, what the heroic Andartes actually were, proved to be more dangerous than the real Greeks. Victims of the deft nad clever propaganda of the cunning Hellens those traitors had spilled far too much holy Bulgarian blood...
Today almost all Albanian and Vlach speaking people in Greece have Greek national consciousness. A considerable portion of the Bulgarian speaking Christian minority in Northern Greece also have Greek national consciousness, i.e. they can be defined as Grecomans. The term Grecoman in Greece does not have a negative connotation of national traitor, with which it is loaded in Bulgaria and FYROM and is percieved as maniacal Greek- a peron infinitely loyal to Hellenizm.
The second meaning of the term Grecoman- a person loyal to the Constantinople Patriarchy, a PAtriarchist. The two meanings often overlap in Bulgaria and in Greece. But one has to keep in mind that although all Grecomans are Patriarchist not all Patriarchists had Greek national feelings. Greek historians often treat Patriarchist as equal to Greek.
According to the Turkish magazine "Turk Hayati":
... the majority of the Christian population of Macedonia was Bulgarian. The Patriarchy did indeed keep under its influence a lot of Bulgarian villages and almost the whole population thought of themselves as Greeks, but they were Bulgarian, spoke Bulgarian and understood little of the Greek prayers...
In Bulgaria and FYROM when the term Grecomans is used independently it is almost exclusively delt with Bulgarian speaking(MAcedonian speaking) Grecomans and in the rest of the cases it is additionally indicated - Vlach Grecomans or Albanian Grecomans. In Romania and Albania it is the opposite- independent use indicates Vlach or Albainian Grecomans.
During the struggle between the Constantinople Patriarchy and the Bulgarian Exarchate and between the chetas of IMRO and the armed Greek propaganda in Macedonia a lot of villages switched loyalties between both churches numerous times which further complicates the case. Arthur Evans writes:
One of the most comic results of this competitive ethnography is the map published several years ago under the aegis of Athens and distributed in this country. According to this map MAcedonia is practically devided in two parts- Greek and "Bulgarophone Greek"- as if some Celt enthusiast would have to deivde Britain into Welsh and "Anglophone Welsh"! Macedonia is really full of artificial demarcations, the true lines of ethnic borders are constantly crossed with classifications founded on religious adherence(for the moment) to the Greek patriarch or the Bulgarian exarch. A Bulgarian village may for political reasons be bribed into accepting the supremacy of the Greek Orthodox church. The population of the village would be in consequence complacently described by those who accomplish the act of spiritual transfer(spiritual doesn't mean anything) as the hope of Greece. But those artificial acquisitions do not go far. The language of the peasants remains Bulgarian...
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