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Thread: The making of the fyroMacedonian language.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TojSum View Post
    Macedonian Lexicon - 16th Century

    Un Lexique Macedonien du XVie siecle. Institut d'Etudes Slaves del'Universite de Paris. Giannelli, Ciro and Andre Vaillant. 1958.


    http://www.macedoniantruth.org/wp-co...siecle-p00.png

    Macedonia during the Middle Ages

    By the end of the 14th century, Macedonia had already been under Ottoman rule for a few decades, losing its status as a vassal state under the leadership of King Marko in 1395. As the greater region was finally deprived of any sense of liberty after the death of George Kastriot - Skenderbeg in 1444, forms of local state structure in Macedonia ceased to exist. This left the responsibility of retaining the culture, language and identity of the people with the religious institutions that were active in Macedonia at that time. The traditional influence of the Patriarchate at Constantinople that was prevalent during the Roman period had resurfaced again in the Ottoman Empire, as the latter looked to use the former to consolidate a single Roman Millet of Orthodox Christians within their domains. However, institutions such as the Archbishopric of Ohrid and even more significantly the hundreds of churches in Macedonia, played a pivotal role in ensuring the local culture, language and identity of the people would survive throughout the centuries of hardships.

    Despite the absence of written works relating to statehood, material of a religious and educational character continued to flourish, and Church Slavonic, an essentially Macedonian tongue that was initially developed for such purposes in the 9th century, remained the literary language of the Macedonian people. However, the vernacular tongue of the Macedonians had co-existed with Church Slavonic and matured over the years, demonstrating a remarkable resilience and stability, which earned its introduced as the language of church services in Macedonia. The Macedonians were faced with foreign interference in both their lands and institutions, but their language had been largely solidified, evidenced in the fact that spoken Macedonian from the 16th century has a far greater affinity to spoken Macedonian dialects of today than it does to Church Slavonic. For well over half of a millenium, the Macedonian language has basically remained the same.

    Vocabulary and Linguistic Characteristics

    The texts reveal distinctive local features that have tenaciously survived the ages, and are still present in a number of today’s spoken Macedonian dialects. This fact reveals the remarkable consistency of the Macedonian language despite the lack of state support or schooling until the 20th century. Below is a sample of words from the texts, along with linguistic characteristics peculiar to the language of the Macedonians.

    Animal/Food/Anatomy Terms - Mrave (Ants); Curvec (Worm), Sokol (Falcon), Vrapci (Birds), Golobi (Pigeons), Kokoshki (Chickens), Petel (Rooster), Ofci (Sheep), Kozi (Goats), Jagne (Lamb), Mechika (Bear), Elen (Deer), Lisica (Fox), Kon (Horse), Krusha (Pear), Meso (Meat), Sireni (Cheese), Jajca (Eggs), Vino (Wine), Sol (Salt), Zhito (Grain), Koska (Bone), Gas (Buttocks), Kuro (Penis), Made (Testicles).

    Unique and Loan Words - The word Galuhci (Mice) is used, which can also be said as Gluhci or Glufci, and Macedonians are the only people who use this word. The word Veligden (Easter) is used, pronounced with the ‘g’ in Macedonian only. Turkish loans are very rare, one example being Jorgano (Blanket).

    Dialectal and Jat Features - The Kostur region contains dialects that have retain several archaic characteristics, such as the word Ranka (Hand) rather than the more common Macedonian variant of Raka. An interesting trend is found in the use of multiple transitions of the Jat feature that is present in various Macedonian and Slavonic dialects. For example, the text employs the word Dedo (Grandfather) and not Djado, yet Hljap (Bread) and not Lep or Leb.

    Definite Articles - The typical Macedonian postfixed definite article is exhibited in words such as Krushata (The Pear) and Dushata (The Soul). It is also noted in the word Patot (The Path) for ‘the path’, although as the case of Jorgano (The Blanket) demonstrates, the ‘t’ at the end can also be dropped, as in several of today’s Macedonian dialects.

    Words and Phrases, Unchanged for Centuries.

    Containing a rich glossary and in excess of 300 words and phrases, the texts demonstrate the strength of the Macedonian language through preservation. Following is a comparison of sentences between the texts and the Macedonian dialect of Bitola as spoken today.

    16th cent., Kostur dialect
    21st cent., Bitola dialect

    Gospodine, brate, da si zdrav, da si prost, ostavi ni da spime, ela da jame, i da pieme, dol da pojdime, da rabotime.
    Gospodine, brate, da si zdrav, da si prost, ostai ne da spiame, ela da jaime, i da piame, dolu da pojdime, da rabotime.

    Imate hljap-o da kupime, imate vino da kupime, ot koja strana da pojdime vo Bogasko.
    Imate lep da kupime, imate vino da kupime, od koja strana da pojdime vo Bogatsko.

    As can be clearly noticed, most of the vocabulary and grammar is identical.

    All of the elements that would later be required to rejuvinate the Macedonian people as they were shaking off centuries of subjugation, were present during this period. The language of the people had solidified, a tradition of heraldry and symbolism had developed which incorporated the emblem of a rapant lion and historical figures from Macedonia’s past, and the churches continued preserve the local customs and serve as cultural centres for the population. The significance of all these elements together cannot be overstated, the language of medieval Macedonia is the same as the language of the Macedonians today. Unfortunately, only a small portion of the larger amount of Macedonian literature from the Middle Ages has survived, much of it being looted and destroyed by Greek-speaking officials, clerics and teachers. Nevertheless, Macedonian as a language reached its current form centuries before the creation of the Balkan states in the 19th and 20th centuries.

    http://www.macedoniantruth.org/wp-co...siecle-p23.png

    http://www.macedoniantruth.org/wp-co...siecle-p24.png

    http://www.macedoniantruth.org/wp-co...siecle-p25.png

    http://www.macedoniantruth.org/wp-co...siecle-p26.png

    There is more but enough for you.
    All I see here is a bunch of words and expresions from the Westernmost part of the Bulgarian dialect continuum:



    Animal/Food/Anatomy Terms - Mrave (Ants); Curvec (Worm), Sokol (Falcon), Vrapci (Birds), Golobi (Pigeons), Kokoshki (Chickens), Petel (Rooster), Ofci (Sheep), Kozi (Goats), Jagne (Lamb), Mechika (Bear), Elen (Deer), Lisica (Fox), Kon (Horse), Krusha (Pear), Meso (Meat), Sireni (Cheese), Jajca (Eggs), Vino (Wine), Sol (Salt), Zhito (Grain), Koska (Bone), Gas (Buttocks), Kuro (Penis), Made (Testicles).
    In standard Bulgarian and transliterated in the LAtin alphabet: Mravki, Chervey, Sokol, Vrabci, Galabi, Kokoshki, Petel, Ovci, Kozi, Agne, Mechka, Elen, Lisica, Kon, Krusha, Meso, Sirene, Yayca, Vino, Sol, Zhito, Kost, Gaz, Kur, Made- pretty much the same.

    Gospodine, brate, da si zdrav, da si prost, ostavi ni da spime, ela da jame, i da pieme, dol da pojdime, da rabotime.
    Gospodine, brate, da si zdrav, da si prost, ostai ne da spiame, ela da jaime, i da piame, dolu da pojdime, da rabotime.
    In standard Bulgarian again: Gosposdine, brate, da si zdrav, da si prost, ostavi ni da spim, ela da yadem i da piem, dolu da otidem, da rabotim.

    Imate hljap-o da kupime, imate vino da kupime, ot koja strana da pojdime vo Bogasko.
    Imate lep da kupime, imate vino da kupime, od koja strana da pojdime vo Bogatsko.
    This one would be: Imate hlyab da kupim, imate vino da kupim, ot koya strana otidem v Bogatsko.

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    Quote Originally Posted by morski View Post
    Analytical Balkano-Slavic aka Bulgarian


    Of course I am fluent only in standard Bulgarian as spoken in the rep. of Bulgaria. But I do understand the norm in fyroMacedonia and the codified vernacular of the Banat Bulgarians as well. As I have stated earlier in this thread Bulgarian is a pluricentric language with at the present moment 3\three standardized versions.



    This is not a serious source, hence you'll have to forgive me for not commenting on it.

    I don't see any comments on your part concerning the quotes in this :post of mine... nor the three posts in the begining of the thread which are also quotes.
    As i told you first we must clarify some things and then you will see comments.

    Now we must clarify another thing.

    Anastasia Karakasidou is Associate Professor of Anthropology at Wellesley College.

    Anastasia Karakasidou is a social anthropologist. She received her doctorate degree from Columbia University in 1992. Her specializations are themes of nationhood and identity; religion and ideology; gender and social stratification; narrative and history; and anthropological theory. She has recently published a book entitled Fields of Wheat, Hills of Blood: Passages to Nationhood in Greek Macedonia, 1870-1990 with University of Chicago Press (1997), as well as a number of articles on the ideology of nationhood in Greece and the Balkans.


    Fields of Wheat, Hills of Blood page 83.
    http://pic.mk/images/fieldsofwh.jpg.

    Why this is not serious source ??? )) It is released from University of Chicago Press, Oct 15, 1997

    And you want to tell that:

    Wikipedia (or like i want to call it shitipedia) or Youtube are serious??? ))

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    Unique and Loan Words - The word Galuhci (Mice) is used, which can also be said as Gluhci or Glufci, and Macedonians are the only people who use this word. The word Veligden (Easter) is used, pronounced with the ‘g’ in Macedonian only. Turkish loans are very rare, one example being Jorgano (Blanket).
    Galuhci is not present in standard Bulgarian, but so are many other dialect words, archaisms etc. from all parts of the Bulgarian diasystem.

    Veligden=Velikden, if this one different letter is the oh so unique feature of "MAcedonian"...

    Jorgano=Yurgana

    Dialectal and Jat Features - The Kostur region contains dialects that have retain several archaic characteristics, such as the word Ranka (Hand) rather than the more common Macedonian variant of Raka. An interesting trend is found in the use of multiple transitions of the Jat feature that is present in various Macedonian and Slavonic dialects. For example, the text employs the word Dedo (Grandfather) and not Djado, yet Hljap (Bread) and not Lep or Leb.
    The Yat and Yus maps of Bulgarian dialect continuum:





    Definite Articles - The typical Macedonian postfixed definite article is exhibited in words such as Krushata (The Pear) and Dushata (The Soul). It is also noted in the word Patot (The Path) for ‘the path’, although as the case of Jorgano (The Blanket) demonstrates, the ‘t’ at the end can also be dropped, as in several of today’s Macedonian dialects.
    In modern Bulgarian, definiteness is expressed by a definite article which is postfixed to the noun, much like in the Scandinavian languages or Romanian (indefinite: човек, 'person'; definite: човекът, "the person") or to the first nominal constituent of definite noun phrases (indefinite: добър човек, 'a good person'; definite: добрият човек, "the good person"). There are four singular definite articles. Again, the choice between them is largely determined by the noun's ending in the singular.[29] Nouns that end in a consonant and are masculine use –ът/–ят, when they are grammatical subjects, and –а/–я elsewhere. Nouns that end in a consonant and are feminine, as well as nouns that end in –а/–я (most of which are feminine, too) use –та. Nouns that end in –е/–о use –то.

    The plural definite article is –те for all nouns except for those, whose plural form ends in –а/–я; these get –тa instead. When postfixed to adjectives the definite articles are –ят/–я for masculine gender (again, with the longer form being reserved for grammatical subjects), –та for feminine gender, –то for neuter gender, and –те for plural.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bulgari..._.28article.29

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    Quote Originally Posted by morski View Post
    All I see here is a bunch of words and expresions from the Westernmost part of the Bulgarian dialect continuum:
    Then why is called Macedonian???

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    Quote Originally Posted by TojSum View Post
    As i told you first we must clarify some things and then you will see comments.

    Now we must clarify another thing.

    Anastasia Karakasidou is Associate Professor of Anthropology at Wellesley College.

    Anastasia Karakasidou is a social anthropologist. She received her doctorate degree from Columbia University in 1992. Her specializations are themes of nationhood and identity; religion and ideology; gender and social stratification; narrative and history; and anthropological theory. She has recently published a book entitled Fields of Wheat, Hills of Blood: Passages to Nationhood in Greek Macedonia, 1870-1990 with University of Chicago Press (1997), as well as a number of articles on the ideology of nationhood in Greece and the Balkans.


    Fields of Wheat, Hills of Blood page 83.
    http://pic.mk/images/fieldsofwh.jpg.

    Why this is not serious source ??? )) It is released from University of Chicago Press, Oct 15, 1997

    And you want to tell that:

    Wikipedia (or like i want to call it shitipedia) or Youtube are serious??? ))
    not a linguist, nor a historian.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TojSum View Post
    Then why is called Macedonian???
    Who calls it Macedonian?

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    Quote Originally Posted by morski View Post
    Who calls it Macedonian?
    Guy who made it in 16th Century.

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    Quote Originally Posted by morski View Post
    not a linguist, nor a historian.
    Correct. She is Anthropologist . Def of anthropology:
    Anthropology /ćnθrɵˈpɒlədʒi/ is a social science that deals with the origins, physical and cultural development, biological characteristics, social customs, and beliefs of humankind. It has origins in the humanities, the natural sciences, and the social sciences.[1] The term "anthropology" is from the Greek anthrōpos (ἄνθρωπος), "man", understood to mean mankind or humanity, and -logia (-λογία), "discourse" or "study."
    Anthropology's basic concerns are the definition of human life and origin, how social relations among humans are organized, who the ancestors of modern Homo sapiens are, what the characterizations of human physical traits are, how humans behave, why there are variations among different groups of humans, how the evolutionary past of Homo sapiens have influenced its social organization and culture and so forth.[citation needed]
    Which makes here very serious source about your behavior for Macedonian language.
    You didn’t answer is this women less serious then wiki and youtube??? )))

    Buy the way she is a greek and she talking about Macedonian language???

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    Quote Originally Posted by TojSum View Post

    Buy the way she is a greek and she talking about Macedonian language???
    Bingo

    Wikipedia is all right imo. And the sources are good.

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    Ok, just for the fun of it.

    So, that's your link: http://pic.mk/images/fieldsofwh.jpg

    and basically I can't find anything in the text that proves "Macedonian" is different than Bulgarian. Actually it doesn't mention Macedonia at all except: "... base the national language on the dialect of Thrace and eastern Macedonia rather than on that spoken in the regions of northern Bulgaria"- we can therefor make the conclusion that since Macedonian dialect was represented in the national language there was no need to create a separate Macedonian language in 1944.

    Again from the text in your link: "... in 1864 began putting out the first monthly magazine in the region written in Bulgarian."

    Когато списание "Зорница" се появява в Цариград през 1864г., то не е първото издание на български език в столицата на Османската империя. През Възрожденския период в Цариград излизат около 20 вестника и 9 списания. От 1862г. от Високата порта е открит Департамент по печата, който има за цел да цензурира пресата – и българските вестници, издавани в Цариград, са ограничени, поради либералното си съдържание, от тези тенденции, докато вестниците, издавани на север от Дунав, се отличават с по-радикална идеология. Цензурата над българския печат се извършва от етнически българи османски чиновници.
    When the magazine "Zornitsa" appeared in Constantinople in 1864 it is not the first periodic publication in bulgarian language in the capital of the Ottoman empire. In the national revival period in Constantiople were being published 20 newspapers and 9 magazines. Since 1862 the Sublime Porte had been established a Press-Department which had the purpose of censoring the press- and Bulgarian newspapres published in Constantinople were limited by this arrangement because of their liberal content, while those published in the North of the Danube river wer notably more radical ideologically. The censorship over Bulgarian press was carried on by ethnic Bulgarians who served as Ottoman burocrats.

    Но поради голямата си популярност и широка социална насока, "Зорница" заема изключително важна позиция в българската историография. В годините след Освобождението "Зорница" е разглеждан от историците като вестникът, оказал най-силно влияние върху развитието на българите през Възраждането. Заслугата за качеството на списанието и вестника е на американските мисионери д-р Алберт Лонг и д-р Илайъс Ригс, за когото се предполага, че е един от първите инициатор на в-к "Зорница".
    But because of the big popularity and wide social focus Zornitsa took on a very important position in Bulgarian historiography. In the post-liberation years Zornitsa was accepted among historians as the newspaper that had the biggest influence on the develpment of Bulgarians during the national revival. The merit for the quality of the magazine and the newspaper goes to d-r Albert Long and d-r Elias Riggs, of whom it is thought to be one of the first initiators of Zornitsa.

    Трудът на двамата при редактирането, издаването и разпространението на вестника в условията на Османската империя разкрива истинската си величина и стойност, когато стане ясно, че са обхванати всички земи, населявани от българи – от Македония до Бесарабия и от Беломорска Тракия до Западните покрайнини. Изключителна за времето си е и прогресивната ориентация на „Зорница” относно образа и ролята на жената в българското общество под влиянието на редакторката Марта Ригс. Паралелно на изданието, протестантското общество в България и динамиката на мисионерската работа изискват силите на тримата и сътрудниците им.Те обичат българския народ и се обричат на националната му кауза, изучават и говорят езика му, стават част от неговата съдба.
    The work of both men in the editing, publishing and distributing the newspaper in the conditions of the Ottoman empire reveals the true greatness and value when it is brought to one's knowledge that it encompassed all regions populated by Bulgarians- from Macedonia to Besarabia and from Aegean Thrace to the Western outlands. Exceptional for its time is also the progressive orientation of Zornitsa with regard to the picture and role of Bulgarian women in the community due to the influence of the editor Martha Riggs. Parallel with the publishing, the protestant community in Bulgaria and the dinamics of missionary work demanded the talent of the three and their associates. They love the Bulgarian people and devoted themsleves to the national cause of the Bulgarians, learned and spoke their language, became a part of their destiny.

    http://www.mediapool.bg/%D0%B2%D0%B5...ews118918.html

    What else... ah, this shit: in fact, Zornitsa eventually became a generic term for newspaper in Bulgaria 9."

    Can't seem to find this 9 reference in this file you linked us to, but this is just nonsense. Вестник is newspaper in Bulgarian. Never heard Zornitsa being used as a synonim.

    As to what the prince of Montenegro said... well, I, morski say that if it wasn't for the astral projection of the vile magician Aasdfh from the planet Efgjgfi in the Rfdsifj system there wouldn't be any Monteniggers() today.

    Ajmo uzivaj!

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