The making of the fyroMacedonian language.

[TojSum]

Ok, just for the fun of it.

So, that's your link: http://pic.mk/images/fieldsofwh.jpg

and basically I can't find anything in the text that proves "Macedonian" is different than Bulgarian. Actually it doesn't mention Macedonia at all except: "... base the national language on the dialect of Thrace and eastern Macedonia rather than on that spoken in the regions of northern Bulgaria"- we can therefor make the conclusion that since Macedonian dialect was represented in the national language there was no need to create a separate Macedonian language in 1944.


What else... ah, this shit: in fact, Zornitsa eventually became a generic term for newspaper in Bulgaria 9."

Can't seem to find this 9 reference in this file you linked us to, but this is just nonsense. Вестник is newspaper in Bulgarian. Never heard Zornitsa being used as a synonim.

As to what the prince of Montenegro said... well, I, morski say that if it wasn't for the astral projection of the vile magician Aasdfh from the planet Efgjgfi in the Rfdsifj system there wouldn't be any Monteniggers() today.

Ajmo uzivaj!

Basically the text shows that you are speaking dialect of Macedonian language and that American missionaries are creators of so called modern Bulgarian language (the real one i already show you http://turkic-languages.scienceontheweb.net/ )

If it’s for you the words Eastern Macedonia not mentioning Macedonia then you have serious problem.

About Zornitza from your favorite site:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bulgari...ates_relations

From first contacts to 1919

American missionaries and schools in Bulgaria

The first contact between Americans and Bulgarians in the early 19th century was through American books and American missionaries. The first American literature to be translated into Bulgarian was Benjamin Franklin's introduction to Poor Richard's Almanac, "The Way to Wealth", in 1837. In 1839 a Protestant religious society, the American Board of Commissioners for Foreign Missions, sent the first Protestant missionaries to the Ottoman Empire, where the Ottoman Government had given them permission to preach to the Christian population. One of these missionaries, Elias Riggs, learned Bulgarian and published the first guide to Bulgarian grammar for foreigners in 1843. By the end of the 1850s, American missionaries had printed and distributed a version of the Bible in the Bulgarian vernacular. Charles Morse published a full textbook of Bulgarian grammar in 1860, and compiled the first Bulgarian-English dictionary.

In 1860, the first American school (today called the American College of Sofia) was founded in Plovdiv by missionaries from the Congregational Church. Besides Bible instruction, it taught mathematics, chemistry, physics, and the English language. In 1863, a school for young women was opened in Stara Zagora. The two schools merged and moved to Samokov in 1869. The American School of Samokov offered an American-style education, taught in English to the Bulgarians.

Robert College, a branch of the State University of New York, also played an important part in educating the new Bulgarian elite. It opened its campus in Istanbul in 1863, teaching mathematics, natural history, economics, logic, political history, international law, philosophy, and the English language. By 1868 half the student body were Bulgarians. Three future Prime Ministers of Bulgaria, Konstantin Stoilov, Todor Ivanchov, and Ivan Evstratiev Geshov, studied there. American missionaries also founded the newspaper Zornitsa, which published for seventy-six years, with articles on science, history, and the theory and practice of western democracy. The model of the American Republic was frequently discussed by Bulgarian intelligentsia as one model for an independent Bulgaria.

The Protestant missionaries had limited success in Bulgaria. Their work was opposed by the Bulgarian Orthodox Church and by many leaders of the Bulgarian national-liberation movement, who did not want to see Bulgaria divided by religion, but the schools and newspapers founded by the missionaries contributed to the Bulgarian National Awakening and the American missionaries who returned to the United states often became unofficial diplomats for Bulgaria.

Something else in this context:
http://eabulgaria.org/index.php?Item...tent&task=view

Prince of Montenegro knows very well what to say and when to say )

Јас уживам додека те гледам како се потиш, не се секирај

[poiuytrewq0987]

Scandinavian countries can speak with each others with degrees of mutual intelligibility... I guess it's crazy that there is a Norwegian, Swedish and Danish languages? They should rename other two languages Swedish, according to Morskiology.

[morski]

Ok, ok. Bulgarians speak a form of "Macedonian". I can agree to that. It's just that it was in most cases called Bulgarian in the past.

Can we have peace now?


I'll also ask you not to derail the thread. Toipc is "The making of the fyroMacedonian language", not the making of the Bulgarian one. If you cannot dispute the info I've posted earlier do not post junk here.

[TojSum]

Ok, ok. Bulgarians speak a form of "Macedonian". I can agree to that. It's just that it was in most cases called Bulgarian in the past.

Yes off course )))

Lets see:

First about your scientis.

http://i149.photobucket.com/albums/s...y/brown275.jpg

Basically no one believes in your lies back in 1914, no one in 1984 and no one today.

Now lets see is Macedonian called Bulgarian:

Guide to the Slavonic Languages" from Reginald G.A. de Bray, London, 1951.


http://i561.photobucket.com/albums/s...title_1951.png

http://i561.photobucket.com/albums/s...ished-1951.png

Read the first sentence.

http://i561.photobucket.com/albums/s...uages_p243.png

On Macedonian for you:

Заради иронијата на историјата народот чии предци им го дадоа на Словените нивниот прв литературен јазик, беа последни на кои им се призна нивниот модерен јазик како Словенски и различен од соседните Српски и Бугарски.

From your mother Russia:

Regardless of the significant dialectal diversity, the Macedonian dialects are a unit and are noticeably distinct from the national dialects of Thrace, the Rhodope Mts., Mysia and the Balkan Mts. . . . . All of Macedonia can be divided into two dialect groups: the region to the west of the Vardar River and the southeast region of Macedonia. The second group includes also the dialects of Kostur (Castoria).

The western group is characterized by the following dialectal features: 1) three forms of the article, -ot (masc.), -ta (fem.), -to (neut.);

-ov, -va, -vo, -on, -na, -no; 2) third person singular present ending -t; 3) stress on the third syllable from the end; 4) the phraseological character of stress. The western Macedonian dialects are furhter divided into several dialect groups: Debar, Ohrid, central, Tikvesh-Mariovo, Veles-Skopje, Upper Polog and Lower Polog. Characteristic of the southeast dialects are: the pronouns on, ona, ono, oni; the preposition 505, etc.

The trying historical conditions experienced by the Macedonians have left their imprint on their culture. After the first imperialistic war (1914-1918) the greater part of Macedonia was joined to Yugoslavia. National oppression by the ruling Serbian bourgeoisie is exceptionally heavy. Serbian linguistic science, in the person of Belic, denies any right of self-determination to the Macedonian Slavs, claiming that the Macedonian Slavs are Serbs. On the other hand, Bulgarian linguistic science, which serves the purposes of Bulgarian imperialism, does not recognize the right of the Macedonians to independent national development. Southern Macedonia belongs to Greece, where there is also strong national oppression.

The Great Soviet Encyclopedia, vol.37, Moscow, 1938, pp.743-744
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Encyclopedia of Indo-European Culture
James Mallory (Editor), D.Q. Adams (Editor)

http://i149.photobucket.com/albums/s.../ieculture.png

http://i149.photobucket.com/albums/s...culture301.png

http://i149.photobucket.com/albums/s...culture523.png

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Old Church Slavonic Grammar
Horace G. Lunt (Author)

http://i149.photobucket.com/albums/s...ff/luntocs.png

http://i149.photobucket.com/albums/s...f/luntocs7.png

http://i149.photobucket.com/albums/s.../vlasto182.png

http://i149.photobucket.com/albums/s...vlasto182a.png

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Southeastern Europe in the Middle Ages, 500–1250

Florin Curta, University of Florida

http://www.cambridge.org/gb/knowledg...e_locale=en_GB

http://i149.photobucket.com/albums/s...uff/florin.png

http://i149.photobucket.com/albums/s...lorin285-1.png

http://i149.photobucket.com/albums/s.../florin286.png

Can we have peace now?

I have peace, you dont have??? up

I'll also ask you not to derail the thread. Toipc is "The making of the fyroMacedonian language", not the making of the Bulgarian one. If you cannot dispute the info I've posted earlier do not post junk here.

Only one who posts junk here is you. Your propaganda materials without any reliable source are junks to. Since your posts referring that Macedonian language is Bulgarian i must to deny that and for that purpose we all must learn something about bulgarin. I’m disputing with very reliable sources, you don’t dispute you are spreading propaganda. Now look and read very carefully my links above (About origin of Macedonian language) and we can go further (Back in time) with discussion.

[TojSum]

A bilingual vernacular Gospel manuscript from Macedonia
(late 18th – early 19th century)

The Konikovo Gospel (Bibl.Patr.Alex. 268)


In the winter of 2003/04, researchers from the University of Helsinki found an interesting bilingual manuscript, written in what is now Greek Macedonia in the late 18th or early 19th century. It contains a Greek evangeliarium (Gospel lectionary for Sunday services) and its Slavic translation, both written in Greek letters. What makes the manuscript unique is its bilinguality, and the fact that both the Greek and the Slavic texts represent the vernacular, not the church language. The Slavic part is the oldest known text of greater scope that directly reflects the living dialects of Southern Macedonia. It is also the oldest known Gospel translation in Modern Macedonian.

More here:

http://www.helsinki.fi/~jslindst/268/

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
In 2004, Victor Friedman, Professor of Slavic and Balkan Linguistics at the University of Chicago, wrote about the manuscript as follows:

The significance of the Konikovo Gospel for the study of Macedonian cannot be overestimated. At the same time, this Gospel will also contribute to the study of colloquial Modern Greek. In the case of Macedonian, the southern dialect of the Lower Vardar (or Voden-Kukuš) type represented in the manuscript is one that is in most urgent need of documentation and study. Owing to the domination of the Church Slavonic tradition on the territory where Macedonian was spoken from the Middle Ages until the nineteenth century, we have very little manuscript evidence documenting the changes that took place in the spoken language during that crucial period. Moreover, such documentation as we do have comes mostly from manuscript traditions produced in Macedonia’s southwestern periphery (Ohrid) and the northeastern region (Kratovo). The southeastern dialects of the type represented by the Konikovo Gospel are thus very important in helping us complete our picture of the development of Macedonian. At the same time, because the Lower Vardar dialects were almost all spoken in a region which was assigned to Greece at the end of the Balkan Wars in 1913, one in which hundreds of thousands of Greek- and Turkish-speaking refugees were settled as a result of the exchange of populations between Greece and Turkey 1922-23, one which was the focus of Greek attempts to create a homogenous nation-state by stamping out minority languages during the inter-war period, and one which saw the most serious fighting during the Greek Civil War and from which thousands of Macedonian-speakers fled after 1948, our data on these dialects is extremely limited. There are very few speakers of the dialect left in the region. In addition to the vicissitudes of war and persecution which reduced such data concerning these dialects as has come down to us, there is the additional complication that activists from this region who sought to promote a Macedonian ethnic and national consciousness wrote in a different dialect — the West Central (Veles-Prilep-Bitola-Brod) one — as this was, by general consensus, even at the beginning of the twentieth century, the most distinctive and at the same time most readily comprehensible to the largest number of people. The Konikovo Gospel is thus an extremely rare and precious testimony both to Macedonian literary activity and at the same time a valuable resource for an inadequately attested but linguistically important Macedonian dialect.


OU’T PERVO BESHE RETCHTA, I RETCHETA BESHE SOS BOGA, I BOG BESHE RETCHTA. VOA BESHE OT PERVO SOS BOGA. SITE RABOTI ZARDI NIZ LAKARDIATA SE TCHINIA, I BEZ NEGO NESATCHINE NIKOE OT KOLKU SE TCHINIA. OUT NEGO BESHE ZHIVOT – I ZHIVO


KE VIDOA GOSPODA.
I JESUS PAK MU KAZHA - MIR NA VAS - KE ME POSHTI TATKO, I JAZE POSHTAM NA VAS
I KE RETCHE VOA, DOINA NA NIH, I RETCHE ZEMAITE DUH SFETIJ
I NA KOGOTO GREHOVETAI PROSTITE, SE PROSTENI, I NA KOGO ZAPRITE SE ZAPRENI
I THOMA SE VELISHE BLIZNAK, EDNO OT DVANAISTE, NE BESHE SOS NIH, KOGA DOIDE JESUS. MU VELEA (……..) DRUZITE UTCHENITSOI – VIDOHME GOSPODA
I ON MU RETCHE - AKO NE VIDAM NA RATSETEMU NISIANITAIOT KARFIITE, I AKO NE KLADAM PRASTOTMI NA NISIANITE OT KARFIITE, I AKO NE KLADAM RAKATAMI NA REBROTOMU, NEKE VERUVAM
BOGA NIKOI NEKOI PAT NEGO VIDE - EDINORODNIOT SIN, SHTO EI OT PA ZVATA NA TATKOTO, ON GO RAZRETCHE - I VEA EI MARTURIATA NA JOANNA - KOGA POSHTIA

[MandM]

wait wait a minute how can macedonians speak bulgarian dialect when macedonia has been since alexander the great, and bulgarians came much later

[Hurrem sultana]

wow wait bulgarians trying to force macedonians to speak bulgarian? geez you behave like serbs

[Crn Volk]

The Bulgars are a disappearing race. In their last census, their numbers dropped dramatically. I guess low birthrate, and mass migration to western countries has caused this. Bulgars need to concentrate on Bulgaria more, and not Macedonia or the Macedonians.

[MandM]

wow wait bulgarians trying to force macedonians to speak bulgarian? geez you behave like serbs

wait a little miss bosnian, serbs never forced any one to speak serbian, but it would be easier if u spoke serbian so the hole world would understand u

[MandM]

The Bulgars are a disappearing race. In their last census, their numbers dropped dramatically. I guess low birthrate, and mass migration to western countries has caused this. Bulgars need to concentrate on Bulgaria more, and not Macedonia or the Macedonians.

to be fair its happening to almost ever european countrie