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Thread: The making of the fyroMacedonian language.

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    What's with FYROMians and their .png, .jpg cropped out lines from "sources". It's pathetic.

    Horace Lunt is a protege/солташак of (B)Laze Koneski/Лаже Конески/Благойе Лямевич/Благой Конев:

    My title would seem to put Horace Lunt in the position of isapostolos, or a latter-day Saint; "disciple" would be more appropriate. Like St. Cyril, he is a distinguished multilinguist. Since 1959 professor of Slavic at Harvard, he has worked both ends of the longMacedonian street. His first major work, written at the Biblical age 33, was a Grammar of the Macedonian Literary Language (Skopje, 1952), the first languistic description and analysis in any language. Lunt's is the only grammar listed in Koneski's Istorija na Makedonskiot Jazik (History of the Macedonian Language, Skopje 1965), aside from his own. Only three years later (1974) came his Old Church Slavonic Grammar (6th ediction, rev.), described as "the first to be written in English" and for many years a standard work (J. O. Ferrell, Language, vol. 33, p. 450 - 453). A thousand years of spoken Macedonian separate these two grammars.
    By-product of Lunt's work on the Macedonian language was his "Survey of Macedonian Literature" in the first volume of Harvard Slavic Studies (1954) of which he was editor. This also was a pioneer work (and remains the only English source - other than an English translation of one of Koneski's works. Towards the Macedonian Renaissance, Skopje, 1961). He has also published a few shorter pieces. Of special interest is an article, "The creation of Standard Macedonian" (Anthropological Linguistics, May, 1959).
    Lunt himself tells us how he discovered Macedonia in the Preface to Grammar of the Macedonian Literary Language, p. 1. While in the U. S. Army in 1944, he stumbled on some partizan underground publications in a Macedonian dialect. After the war he attended lectures on Macedonian in Prague, and in 1950 at Bled, given by the leading Skopje authority, Blazhe Koneski, and sponsored by the Yugoslav Council for Science and Culture. In 1951, fresh from a Columbia Ph. D. (1950), he spent three months in Skopje with financial aid from the Yugoslav Council and the Macedonian Ministry of Education, Science, and Culture. There he had the guidance and assistance of Prof. Koneski and associates at the University of Skopje. Thus, Koneski's Slavic Seminar acted as judge and jury in determining what was to be standard. Lunt's Grammar of the Macedonian Literary Language was printed in Belgrade and published by the Macedonian State Press in Skopje in August 1952. It might, therefore, be considered official.
    http://www.promacedonia.org/en/other/clarke.html
    Therefor not a reliable source.

    The trying historical conditions experienced by the Macedonians have left their imprint on their culture. After the first imperialistic war (1914-1918) the greater part of Macedonia was joined to Yugoslavia. National oppression by the ruling Serbian bourgeoisie is exceptionally heavy. Serbian linguistic science, in the person of Belic, denies any right of self-determination to the Macedonian Slavs, claiming that the Macedonian Slavs are Serbs. On the other hand, Bulgarian linguistic science, which serves the purposes of Bulgarian imperialism, does not recognize the right of the Macedonians to independent national development. Southern Macedonia belongs to Greece, where there is also strong national oppression.

    The Great Soviet Encyclopedia, vol.37, Moscow, 1938, pp.743-744
    Do you believe yourself or do you play the Orwellian doublethink game.

    INSTANT STANDARD LITERARY MACEDONIAN
    On August 2, 1944, one of the first acts of the 122 delegates from Macedonia to the Anti-Fascist National Liberation Council, meeting clandestinely at the St. Prohor Pchinski Monastery in Serbia, was the following decree:
    1. In the Macedonian state as official language is adopted the People's Macedonian language.
    2. This decision enters into force immediately.
    (Dokumenti od sozdavanjeto i razvitokot na N. R. Makedonija, Documents on the Creation and Development of the P. R. of Macedonia, Skopje, 1949, p. 22)
    This must be the quickest creation of a literary language in history. A Commission, including Blazhe Koneski, was appointed in December to spell out the new literary language. It came up with a new alphabet and orthography on May 3 and June 7, 1945.
    http://www.promacedonia.org/en/other/clarke.html

    Date of creation: 1944

    Place of creation: The Socialist Republic of Macedonia (within the Socialist Federal Republic of Yugoslavia) - the "Prohor Pcinski" monastery.

    Used by: some 1 000 000 Bulgarians (in Macedonia).

    Oldest literary monument: "New Macedonia" newspaper.

    Fabrications:


    H. Lunt, A Grammar of the Macedonian Literary Language, Skopje, 1952.

    (Б)ЛажеКонески, Историjа на македонскиот jазик. Дел I. Увод, За гласовите, За акцентот, Скопjе, 1952; Дел Il: 3a формите и нивната употреба, Cкоnje, 1957.

    (Б)Лаже Конески, Исторjа на македонскиот jазик, Скопjе - Белград, 1965, 1981, 1982.

    Правопис на македонскиот литературен jазик со правописен речник, Скопjе, 1970, 1979.

    Речник на македонскиот jазик со српско-хрватски толкуваниjа (II-III), Скопjе, 1961, 1966, 1979, 1986.

    в. Милики , Обратен речник на македонскиот jазик, Скопje, 1967.

    Двуезични речници и учебници по немски, английски, френски, полски, румънски, руски и словенски.

    Научно списание "Македонски jазик" от 1954 г.

    М. Георгиевски, Македонско книжевно наследство од XI до XVIII век, Скопjе, 1979.

    Д. Митрев. Повоени македонски поети. Антологиjа, Скопjе, 1960.

    М. Друговац, Современи македонски писатели, Скопjе, 1979.

    М. Ташковски, Кон етногенезата на македонскиот народ, Скопjе, 1974.

    Историjа на македонскиот народ (Институт за национална историjа, Скопjе, 1969. I. Од предисториското време до краjот на ХVIII век. II Од почетокот на ХХ век до краjот на првата светска воjна. III Периодот меу двете светски воjни и народната револуциjа (1918-1945).

    While T. Stamatoski (also Stamatov, Stamatovski) wrote back in 1986 on the struggle for Macedonian literary language, looking back and ahead in future at the same time (?) (Борба за македонски литературен jазик, Скопjе), Blaze Koneski had already (3 years before) told the "Communist" (1376, from July 29, 1983) the story of the endorsement and the introduction of this literary language (Афирмациjа на македонскиот jазик. Сосем оформен современен литературен jазик, Скопjе).

    A most ridiculous text is the historical phonology of the new language fathered in 1944 (B. Koneski, A Historical Phonology of the Macedonian Language, Heidelberg, 1983).

    A major departure was effected, not only from the Bulgarian language, but also from its rich literary heritage, as well as from the world literature in translation. However, something had to be saved, and it was done by encroaching upon the miscellany of songs by the Miladinov brothers, born in Macedonia, and which had been originally entitled "Bulgarian Folk Songs", (1861) containing songs from Struga, Okhrida, Prilep, Kukus, Kostur and from other parts of Vardar and Aegean Macedonia. In 1962 it came out in Skopie under the forged title of "Miscellany", with a forged "Macedonian" text, and on top of everything else, labelled "the most outstanding work ever published, of the Macedonian literature.
    http://www.promacedonia.org/en/krons.../ik_3_eng.html

    So who falsifies the documentary record now!? You posted this shit:http://i149.photobucket.com/albums/s...y/brown275.jpg


    In the lingual-geographic aspect, the "Macedonian" dialects were declared all too unique, having nothing in common with Bulgarian. This explains why a Macedonian dialectal atlas was never released. Every dialectologist is well aware that there is no dialectical boundary to separate Bulgaria from Macedonia...
    http://www.promacedonia.org/en/krons.../ik_3_eng.html


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    Quote Originally Posted by TojSum View Post
    A bilingual vernacular Gospel manuscript from Macedonia
    (late 18th – early 19th century)

    The Konikovo Gospel (Bibl.Patr.Alex. 268)


    In the winter of 2003/04, researchers from the University of Helsinki found an interesting bilingual manuscript, written in what is now Greek Macedonia in the late 18th or early 19th century. It contains a Greek evangeliarium (Gospel lectionary for Sunday services) and its Slavic translation, both written in Greek letters. What makes the manuscript unique is its bilinguality, and the fact that both the Greek and the Slavic texts represent the vernacular, not the church language. The Slavic part is the oldest known text of greater scope that directly reflects the living dialects of Southern Macedonia. It is also the oldest known Gospel translation in Modern Macedonian.

    More here:

    http://www.helsinki.fi/~jslindst/268/

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    In 2004, Victor Friedman, Professor of Slavic and Balkan Linguistics at the University of Chicago, wrote about the manuscript as follows:

    The significance of the Konikovo Gospel for the study of Macedonian cannot be overestimated. At the same time, this Gospel will also contribute to the study of colloquial Modern Greek. In the case of Macedonian, the southern dialect of the Lower Vardar (or Voden-Kukuš) type represented in the manuscript is one that is in most urgent need of documentation and study. Owing to the domination of the Church Slavonic tradition on the territory where Macedonian was spoken from the Middle Ages until the nineteenth century, we have very little manuscript evidence documenting the changes that took place in the spoken language during that crucial period. Moreover, such documentation as we do have comes mostly from manuscript traditions produced in Macedonia’s southwestern periphery (Ohrid) and the northeastern region (Kratovo). The southeastern dialects of the type represented by the Konikovo Gospel are thus very important in helping us complete our picture of the development of Macedonian. At the same time, because the Lower Vardar dialects were almost all spoken in a region which was assigned to Greece at the end of the Balkan Wars in 1913, one in which hundreds of thousands of Greek- and Turkish-speaking refugees were settled as a result of the exchange of populations between Greece and Turkey 1922-23, one which was the focus of Greek attempts to create a homogenous nation-state by stamping out minority languages during the inter-war period, and one which saw the most serious fighting during the Greek Civil War and from which thousands of Macedonian-speakers fled after 1948, our data on these dialects is extremely limited. There are very few speakers of the dialect left in the region. In addition to the vicissitudes of war and persecution which reduced such data concerning these dialects as has come down to us, there is the additional complication that activists from this region who sought to promote a Macedonian ethnic and national consciousness wrote in a different dialect — the West Central (Veles-Prilep-Bitola-Brod) one — as this was, by general consensus, even at the beginning of the twentieth century, the most distinctive and at the same time most readily comprehensible to the largest number of people. The Konikovo Gospel is thus an extremely rare and precious testimony both to Macedonian literary activity and at the same time a valuable resource for an inadequately attested but linguistically important Macedonian dialect.


    OU’T PERVO BESHE RETCHTA, I RETCHETA BESHE SOS BOGA, I BOG BESHE RETCHTA. VOA BESHE OT PERVO SOS BOGA. SITE RABOTI ZARDI NIZ LAKARDIATA SE TCHINIA, I BEZ NEGO NESATCHINE NIKOE OT KOLKU SE TCHINIA. OUT NEGO BESHE ZHIVOT – I ZHIVO


    KE VIDOA GOSPODA.
    I JESUS PAK MU KAZHA - MIR NA VAS - KE ME POSHTI TATKO, I JAZE POSHTAM NA VAS
    I KE RETCHE VOA, DOINA NA NIH, I RETCHE ZEMAITE DUH SFETIJ
    I NA KOGOTO GREHOVETAI PROSTITE, SE PROSTENI, I NA KOGO ZAPRITE SE ZAPRENI
    I THOMA SE VELISHE BLIZNAK, EDNO OT DVANAISTE, NE BESHE SOS NIH, KOGA DOIDE JESUS. MU VELEA (……..) DRUZITE UTCHENITSOI – VIDOHME GOSPODA
    I ON MU RETCHE - AKO NE VIDAM NA RATSETEMU NISIANITAIOT KARFIITE, I AKO NE KLADAM PRASTOTMI NA NISIANITE OT KARFIITE, I AKO NE KLADAM RAKATAMI NA REBROTOMU, NEKE VERUVAM
    BOGA NIKOI NEKOI PAT NEGO VIDE - EDINORODNIOT SIN, SHTO EI OT PA ZVATA NA TATKOTO, ON GO RAZRETCHE - I VEA EI MARTURIATA NA JOANNA - KOGA POSHTIA

    The history of Bible translations into Macedonian is connected in its early years with the history of Bible translations into Bulgarian.

    In 1852 in Salonica the cleric Pavel Bozhigrobski, printed a bilingual manuscript. It contains a Greek evangeliarium and its translation to Solun-Voden dialect from today Slavic dialects of Greece, both written in Greek letters. The texts represent the vernacular, not church language. This translation is the oldest known text of greater scope, that directly reflects the living dialects of Aegean Macedonia of that period. Bulgarian Academician Jordan Ivanov, who found the titel page of the gospel in 1907, described it as written in Bulgarian dialect.[1] All the more on the titel page is written: Typed in Bulgarian language, [2] even the author himself, was known later as Bulgarian Exarchate's worker.[3] However the label "Bulgarian language" for various Macedonian dialects can be seen from early vernacular texts such as the four-language dictionary of Daniel Mоscopolites, the early works of Kiril Peichinovich and Yoakim Karchovski and such vernacular gospels written in the Greek alphabet. These written works influenced by or completely written in the local Slavic vernacular were registered in Macedonia in the 18th and beginning of the 19th century and their authors referred to their language as Bulgarian.[4] It is also considered by researchers from the University of Helsinki to be the oldest known Gospel translation in what would later be known as Macedonian language. Until the winter of 2003-04 it was believed that both the manuscript and the printed text, were destroyed. Only the front page was preserved and published in the book "Bulgarian antiquities in Macedonia", Jordan Ivanov, 1931, p. 182., among others. Then a group of researchers from the University of Helsinki found the original manuscript of the translation of the Alexandrian Patriarch, under the reference: Bibl.Patr.Alex. 268. Another example is the Kulakian gospel from 1863, which represents translation from Greek evangeliarium to Solun-Voden dialect and was written by hand with Greek letters from Еvstati Kipriadi in the town of Chalastra. On the titel page is also inscription: Written in Bulgarian language.[5][6]
    The Kulakian Gospel title page published in the book "Български старини от Македония", Йордан Иванов, С. 1931, с. 301.

    The first complete New Testament translated in the Macedonian language was printed in 1964. The whole Bible (including the Deuterocanonical books) translated in Macedonian by the Archbishop Gavril was printed in 1990. An independent translation of the complete Bible was prepared by Duško Konstantinov in the mid 1970s, but it was not printed until 1996 by the Loucas Foundation[citation needed]. A dynamic translation of the New Testament prepared by Ivan Grozdanov and Goran Stojanov was published in 1999 under the umbrella of the International Bible Society.[7]

    Jehovah's Witnesses have translated their New World Translation of the Holy Scriptures into Macedonian.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bible_t...nto_Macedonian


    In the attachment is the titular page of the Konikovo gospel with the phrase Bulgarian language underlined by me.

    What you do my dear cousin is: Nemam dokaz ali tvrdim...

    Аре, чупка от темата ми!
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Click image for larger version. 

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    Wasn't Bulgarian a Turkic language prior to the 9th century?? What happened??

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sokol View Post
    Wasn't Bulgarian a Turkic language prior to the 9th century?
    No.

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    Quote Originally Posted by morski View Post
    What's with FYROMians and their .png, .jpg cropped out lines from "sources". It's pathetic.

    Horace Lunt is a protege/солташак of (B)Laze Koneski/Лаже Конески/Благойе Лямевич/Благой Конев:


    http://www.promacedonia.org/en/other/clarke.html
    Therefor not a reliable source. [/QUOTE]


    I gave you paragraphs from the worlds very well known books and authors, you are giving me tataristic propaganda site which is very well know too and you are trying with this site to discredited my sources. Who’s pathetic??? )


    Do you believe yourself or do you play the Orwellian doublethink game.
    The trying historical conditions experienced by the Macedonians have left their imprint on their culture. After the first imperialistic war (1914-1918) the greater part of Macedonia was joined to Yugoslavia. National oppression by the ruling Serbian bourgeoisie is exceptionally heavy. Serbian linguistic science, in the person of Belic, denies any right of self-determination to the Macedonian Slavs, claiming that the Macedonian Slavs are Serbs. On the other hand, Bulgarian linguistic science, which serves the purposes of Bulgarian imperialism, does not recognize the right of the Macedonians to independent national development. Southern Macedonia belongs to Greece, where there is also strong national oppression.

    The Great Soviet Encyclopedia, vol.37, Moscow, 1938, pp.743-744


    Why should not believe to people who are responsible for creating bulgaristan???

    Your propaganda site is not worth wasting time.

    Quote Originally Posted by morski View Post
    Again bulgaristan propaganda map???? )))) Bulgarian linguistic map from Todor Panayotov )))

    Let’s see real scientist what have to say about this:



    Ethnolinguistic distribution, ca. 1900
    Historical Atlas of Central Europe-Paul Robert Magocsi
    You have greetings from the ethnolingustic group with number 20. up

    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    The Macedonians, who have their own separate language and indisputable ethnic originality, do not have the right to be called Macedonians.

    •Henri Barbusse (1873-1935) French Writer, Un peuple asservi, "Monde" No.108, June 28.1930, p.2

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Vostokov himself, concerning the question of the origin of the Old Church Slavonic language, was in favor of Macedonism, naming as its fatherland Macedonia, and therefore, said Vostokov, it could be called Macedonian. But Vostokov was never in favor of Bulgarism of this significant scholarly thesis in the narrow meaning of the word, as his opponents claimed; on the contrary, as concerns the Bulgarian tongue itself, it could have, according to Vostokov, differed from the former (Macedonian) in many important features since ancient times and we will note, on our own part, as it differs from it even now. One would expect that sooner or later Vostokov's assertion will be confirmed by the investigation not only of historical linguistic documents but also of the contemporary structure of the Slavic tongues and especially of the Slavic dialects in the supposed fatherland of Cyril and Methodius's Slavic language.

    •P.D. Draganov, "Nosovye glasnye zvuki v sovremennych makedonsko-slavjanskich i bolgarskich govorach" (Nasal Vowels in Contemporary Macedo-Slavic and Bulgarian Dialects), Russkij fiblogicheskij vestnik, vol. XIX, issue 10, Warsaw 1888, p.2 (reprint)

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    quote from the chatbox

    oh dear, you mean Leo speaks in fyromanian and morski in bulgarian and they understand each other? The fyromanians will be upset

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    Quote Originally Posted by morski View Post
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bible_t...nto_Macedonian


    In the attachment is the titular page of the Konikovo gospel with the phrase Bulgarian language underlined by me.

    What you do my dear cousin is: Nemam dokaz ali tvrdim...

    Аре, чупка от темата ми!
    You still learn history from wikipedia???? ))))))))))) Keep it going

    Среди се малце како се оденсуваш и немој мене со зборови како "ајде чупка" и престани да шириш глупава анти македонска татарска пропаганда.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TojSum View Post
    You still learn history from wikipedia???? ))))))))))) Keep it going

    Среди се малце како се оденсуваш и немој мене со зборови како "ајде чупка" и престани да шириш глупава анти македонска татарска пропаганда.
    nemoj da gi vikas tvoite bratovi tatari Zapadni Bulgarin.

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    nm

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    Yeah also if you look there is also Pomak language too.
    Last edited by пустиняк; 03-03-2012 at 01:01 PM.

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