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Thread: The making of the fyroMacedonian language.

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    Quote Originally Posted by morski View Post
    Anyway, thread is about the making of the fyroMacedonian language starting 1944. Lets stay on topic.
    And who cares about your version of history? Oh wait, that's right, nobody.


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    Quote Originally Posted by morski View Post
    Anyway, thread is about the making of the fyroMacedonian language starting 1944. Lets stay on topic.
    Standard Macedonian was adopted as an official language in August 1944 by a provisional government run by the Anti-Fascist Assembly for the National Liberation of Macedonia (ASNOM) when it declared the formation of the Socialist Republic of Macedoniaa constituent state within the Socialist Federative Republic of Yugoslaviaand formal codification was finalized in the same period. Efforts at standardizing the Macedonian language prior to 1944 were unsuccessful on an official level. This date is imprecise; however, Victor Friedman states it was a symbolic act which signified the beginning of a period in which the standard was able to be implemented

    Friedman, V. (1998) "The implementation of standard Macedonian: problems and results" in International Journal of the Sociology of Language, Vol. 131, pp. 31-57

    Friedman, V. (1985) "The sociolinguistics of literary Macedonian" in International Journal of the Sociology of Language, Vol. 52, pp. 31-57


    Now i have two questions for you.
    First, when was the last standardization of Bulgarian language??? (Dont lie i know exact date )
    Second, why Efforts at standardizing the Macedonian language prior to 1944 were unsuccessful on an official level ???

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    Quote Originally Posted by TojSum View Post
    Standard Macedonian was adopted as an official language in August 1944 by a provisional government run by the Anti-Fascist Assembly for the National Liberation of Macedonia (ASNOM) when it declared the formation of the Socialist Republic of Macedonia—a constituent state within the Socialist Federative Republic of Yugoslavia—and formal codification was finalized in the same period. Efforts at standardizing the Macedonian language prior to 1944 were unsuccessful on an official level. This date is imprecise; however, Victor Friedman states it was a symbolic act which signified the beginning of a period in which the standard was able to be implemented

    Friedman, V. (1998) "The implementation of standard Macedonian: problems and results" in International Journal of the Sociology of Language, Vol. 131, pp. 31-57

    Friedman, V. (1985) "The sociolinguistics of literary Macedonian" in International Journal of the Sociology of Language, Vol. 52, pp. 31-57


    Now i have two questions for you.
    First, when was the last standardization of Bulgarian language??? (Dont lie i know exact date )
    Second, why Efforts at standardizing the Macedonian language prior to 1944 were unsuccessful on an official level ?
    ??
    You make a good point here and I commend you for it.

    In me own humble opinion it is so because there was little need to do so before this year. The Macedonian intelectual elite before '44 were mostly educated in Exarchate schools and did not feel the standard Bulgarian as a foreign language, not to mention that probably half of them lived in Bulgaria proper anyway.

    It was exactly their strong lobbying powers in the principality that had us involved in the wars for National unification as they are known in our historiography. I always like to point out to the fine example general Kliment Boyadzhiev serves for.

    He is native to the town of Ohrid and commanded First Bulgarian Army during WWI which happens to have chased out the Serbs from that town. In your view of history that bloke is bugarash, anti-macedonian, predavnik, velikob'lgarin or whatever... in our history he's just a Bulgarian from Macedonia as almost all other prominent figures from Yoakim Krchovski to Ivan Mihaylov.

    Point being there was never ever untill 1944 any need for a special 'Macedonian' language to be created for the use of the people of the geographical region of Macedonia of the Slavic persuasion. Except for some
    Serboman peasants who were too lazy to learn standard Bulgarian during the years of opression from Belgrad, you know South Serbia, Vardar Banovina, etc.

    Now I know about some earlier deviations but they were always a margianl minority and often inspired by foreign propaganda, so they mean little to me.

    As for your first question the last standardizaton of the Bulgarian language was at the same time as the standardizaiton of your own language, i.e. after the end of WWII under pressure from the Comintern, but it wasn't as harsh and abrupt. It did however terminate the ability of standard Bulgarian to maintain its function as the Dachsprache for the whole Analytical South-Slavic aka Bulgarian dialect continuum because it removed the YAT(Ѣ) and YUS(Ѫ) characters which used to enable the different pronunciation of the Old-Bulgarian sounds while writing the same. Here is AGAIN the maps of YAT and YUS in the Analytical South-Slavic aka Bulgarian dialects:


    That's the YAT border between East and West.


    aand the regions where what we always pronounce as Ъ now in standard Bulgarian is actually pronounced as А, У, О, ЪМ, ЪН, АМ, АН, ОМ, ОН... in the different dialects.

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    I find this sudden massive influx of Macedonian users to be very suspicious.

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    Quote Originally Posted by morski View Post
    Anyway, thread is about the making of the fyroMacedonian language starting 1944. Lets stay on topic.
    OK I'll start a thread on the making of the bolgarian language

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gaztelu View Post
    I find this sudden massive influx of Macedonian users to be very suspicious.
    A Macedonian invasion if you like....


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    Quote Originally Posted by morski View Post
    You make a good point here and I commend you for it.

    In me own humble opinion it is so because there was little need to do so before this year. The Macedonian intelectual elite before '44 were mostly educated in Exarchate schools and did not feel the standard Bulgarian as a foreign language, not to mention that probably half of them lived in Bulgaria proper anyway.

    It was exactly their strong lobbying powers in the principality that had us involved in the wars for National unification as they are known in our historiography. I always like to point out to the fine example general Kliment Boyadzhiev serves for.

    He is native to the town of Ohrid and commanded First Bulgarian Army during WWI which happens to have chased out the Serbs from that town. In your view of history that bloke is bugarash, anti-macedonian, predavnik, velikob'lgarin or whatever... in our history he's just a Bulgarian from Macedonia as almost all other prominent figures from Yoakim Krchovski to Ivan Mihaylov.

    Point being there was never ever untill 1944 any need for a special 'Macedonian' language to be created for the use of the people of the geographical region of Macedonia of the Slavic persuasion. Except for some
    Serboman peasants who were too lazy to learn standard Bulgarian during the years of opression from Belgrad, you know South Serbia, Vardar Banovina, etc.

    Now I know about some earlier deviations but they were always a margianl minority and often inspired by foreign propaganda, so they mean little to me.

    As for your first question the last standardizaton of the Bulgarian language was at the same time as the standardizaiton of your own language, i.e. after the end of WWII under pressure from the Comintern, but it wasn't as harsh and abrupt. It did however terminate the ability of standard Bulgarian to maintain its function as the Dachsprache for the whole Analytical South-Slavic aka Bulgarian dialect continuum because it removed the YAT(Ѣ) and YUS(Ѫ) characters which used to enable the different pronunciation of the Old-Bulgarian sounds while writing the same. Here is AGAIN the maps of YAT and YUS in the Analytical South-Slavic aka Bulgarian dialects:


    That's the YAT border between East and West.


    aand the regions where what we always pronounce as Ъ now in standard Bulgarian is actually pronounced as А, У, О, ЪМ, ЪН, АМ, АН, ОМ, ОН... in the different dialects.

    Everything writen above is running from the truth and spreading bulgarian propaganda. Answer is simple. We didnt have our on country and our government so standardization on offical level it was impossible.

    Ivan Mihaylov is macedonian and biggest national traitor of Macedonia and fashist to:

    http://www.forum.bg-nacionalisti.org...9_11_45_00.png

    So you can take him

    I ask you a simple questions and you avoiding them. Dont spread propaganda and answer.

    When was the first standardization of Bulgarian language and when was the last one???

    This non-sense about YAT i YUS are funny and your bulgarian propaganda maps from wiki are complitly out of mind.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TojSum View Post
    Everything writen above is running from the truth and spreading bulgarian propaganda. Answer is simple. We didnt have our on country and our government so standardization on offical level it was impossible.

    Ivan Mihaylov is macedonian and biggest national traitor of Macedonia and fashist to:

    http://www.forum.bg-nacionalisti.org...9_11_45_00.png

    So you can take him

    I ask you a simple questions and you avoiding them. Dont spread propaganda and answer.

    When was the first standardization of Bulgarian language and when was the last one???

    This non-sense about YAT i YUS are funny and your bulgarian propaganda maps from wiki are complitly out of mind.
    I did answer your questions correctly. everyone can see this.

    We didn't have a country either when our cultural and educational leaders were in the process of standardizing the language you illiterate yugo-zombie!

    Bulgarian had a standard variety before even the Exarchate was established.

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    Quote Originally Posted by morski View Post
    I did answer your questions correctly. everyone can see this.
    No you didn't answer me on this two questions:

    1.When was the first standardization of Bulgarian language
    2. and when was the last one???

    You avoiding them like devil.

    Because you don't know nothing else i must use your favorite source (just for you to understand well)

    Following the efforts of some figures of the National awakening of Bulgaria (the most notable among them being Neofit Rilski and Ivan Bogorov),[8] there had been many attempts to codify a standard Bulgarian language; however, there was much argument surrounding the choice of norms.(Problems during creation of bulgarian language??? Yes its problem when you have to invent something that doesn't exist).

    Between 1835–1878 more than 25 proposals were put forward and "linguistic chaos" ensued. (Problems again ???)[9]
    Eventually the Eastern dialects prevailed[10] and in 1899 the Ministry of Education officially codified[9] a standard Bulgarian language based on the Drinov-Ivanchev orthography.[10]

    Do you remember this picture?:

    http://pic.mk/images/fieldsofwh.jpg


    Now answer for the second question:

    The alphabet of Marin Drinov was used until the orthographic reform of 1945 when the letters yat (Ѣ, ѣ, called "double e"), and yus (Ѫ, ѫ, called "big yus" or "ъ кръстато") were removed from the alphabet, reducing the number of letters to 30.

    From your favorite source:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bulgarian_language

    I will ask one more question (if you don't answer i will for you)

    Why you changed your alphabet in 1945 when last standardization happened.

    Quote Originally Posted by morski View Post
    We didn't have a country either when our cultural and educational leaders were in the process of standardizing the language you illiterate yugo-zombie!
    Yes, in 1899 you have independent country you delusional lying tataro mongol.

    P.S If continue to use terms like illiterate yugo-zombie for me i will use much worst then delusional lying tataro mongol for you.

    Quote Originally Posted by morski View Post
    Bulgarian had a standard variety before even the Exarchate was established.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TojSum View Post
    No you didn't answer me on this two questions:

    1.When was the first standardization of Bulgarian language
    2. and when was the last one???

    You avoiding them like devil.
    You only asked about the last standardization originally so I can't be blamed for not answering a not asked question.

    Your question was:
    First, when was the last standardization of Bulgarian language?
    My answer:
    As for your first question the last standardizaton of the Bulgarian language was at the same time as the standardizaiton of your own language, i.e. after the end of WWII under pressure from the Comintern, but it wasn't as harsh and abrupt. It did however terminate the ability of standard Bulgarian to maintain its function as the Dachsprache for the whole Analytical South-Slavic aka Bulgarian dialect continuum because it removed the YAT(Ѣ) and YUS(Ѫ) characters which used to enable the different pronunciation of the Old-Bulgarian sounds while writing the same. Here is AGAIN the maps of YAT and YUS in the Analytical South-Slavic aka Bulgarian dialects:


    That's the YAT border between East and West.


    aand the regions where what we always pronounce as Ъ now in standard Bulgarian is actually pronounced as А, У, О, ЪМ, ЪН, АМ, АН, ОМ, ОН... in the different dialects.
    Your hysterical reaction to my answer:
    This non-sense about YAT i YUS are funny and your bulgarian propaganda maps from wiki are complitly out of mind.
    Yet later you post a similar material pretending to be knowledgeable:
    The alphabet of Marin Drinov was used until the orthographic reform of 1945 when the letters yat (Ѣ, ѣ, called "double e"), and yus (Ѫ, ѫ, called "big yus" or "ъ кръстато") were removed from the alphabet, reducing the number of letters to 30.
    Quote Originally Posted by TojSum
    I will ask one more question (if you don't answer i will for you)

    Why you changed your alphabet in 1945 when last standardization happened.
    Read above the bolded and reded bits and parts.

    Following the efforts of some figures of the National awakening of Bulgaria (the most notable among them being Neofit Rilski and Ivan Bogorov),[8] there had been many attempts to codify a standard Bulgarian language; however, there was much argument surrounding the choice of norms.(Problems during creation of bulgarian language??? Yes its problem when you have to invent something that doesn't exist).

    Between 1835–1878 more than 25 proposals were put forward and "linguistic chaos" ensued. (Problems again ???)[9]
    Eventually the Eastern dialects prevailed[10] and in 1899 the Ministry of Education officially codified[9] a standard Bulgarian language based on the Drinov-Ivanchev orthography.[10]

    There was no Bulgarian state in this period hence no supreme authority able to impose such a norm. Nevertheless there was more or less a standard or at least widely known variety used by literary activists and the educated elite of the Bulgarian nation and understood by the Bulgarian people from Ohrid to Odesa. The number of documents from this period is quite indicative of the existence, usefulness and popularity of the Bulgarian language- things which your language can't claim for the same period.

    Quote Originally Posted by TojSum
    Quote Originally Posted by morski
    We didn't have a country either when our cultural and educational leaders were in the process of standardizing the language you illiterate yugo-zombie!
    Yes, in 1899 you have independent country you delusional lying tataro mongol.
    You do not read aight? Chukcha writer not reader. From your quote:
    Between 1835–1878[/B] more than 25 proposals were put forward
    The way you behave in this argument is indicative of FYROM's modus operandi. You keep quiet about arguments you can't dispute and you make a fuss about falsified documents and questionable sources . You refuse to use logic in an argument, divert attention and so on and so forth.
    Last edited by morski; 03-07-2012 at 09:25 AM.

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