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Thread: God.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Teyrn View Post
    God is supposed to be vague, that's one of the central ideas of the Bible. Biblegod is not philosophergod to be overly rationalized about, which is something that's always puzzled me: "take it on faith" is entirely inappropriate a way, for me at least, to approach questions of the divine.

    I perfectly well understand the idea, i.e. that the biblegod is mostly incommunicado except in a generic sense through the workings of nature or specifically through his preferred oracles (or even pagan wizards like Balaam) from time-to-time. This just leaves me scratching my head a bit; the Bible clearly presents the divine being capable of communicating but, for whatever reason, he has to rely on priests to do it for him (and the occasional prophet).


    Yes, but what is faith other then convincing oneself about something that does not accord with the empirical rules of the world or things that are uncertain per se. If faith does not accord with reason or is not applied by it then of what practical use is faith to an individual seeking connection with an abstract and divine being.


    I think its all too confusing and imaginary in large part to understand, and its best to be content with what we can know in the empirical world. All the knowledge beyond this world is nothing more than a vagary, and is probably best not being rationalized about. I do know that people tend to anthropologize that which does exist beyond, so this does show that humans subconsciously are programmed to rationalize that which is beyond our reason.


    We can not go without rationalizing the concept of God, because it would be like trying to think we can walk or move on water or into empty space. Its not viable or possible, and its not worth our time to dare to enter such a vague and obscure proposition. Its best to improve our own human conditions on the basis of reason, and to use rational and logical propositions and models as grounds to elevating the imagination and brain to something more abstract and divine.

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    Veteran Member Neanderthal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GeistFaust;781881[B
    ]I think the central and primary issue with the conceptualization of God is that man can not help projecting his own anthropological being onto this abstract being.[/B] This tendency to anthropologize God basically has its roots in the Semitic religions, especially Judaism, which basically sees God as manifesting itself simply in the Jewish people and culture. God was a personal individual and an anthropological character in the Jewish mind, and it enveloped its commands and orders in the form of the law and torah.


    This law and torah was built on shanty grounds, and it promoted an ideology laddled with hypocrisy and contradictions. The greatest stupidity about Judaism dealt with its emphasis on that only certain people were chosen by God to receive special messages and revelations. The high priests were the chosen ones to receive the message of God, but the commoner just was not good enough to communicate with the divine and abstract.


    This turns God into a hierarchial being, which seems to give preferences to some people over others. I do believe in a natural hierarchy, but it is not determined by God, but rather by nature. This natural hierarchy is determined by things such as survival of the fittest and natural selection. Some people definitely have a certain capacity or talent which makes them more valuable in a certain aspect than another.


    That said to make a claim that someone can not all of the sudden contact with God on a spur of the moment whim, without having to be a high priest conducting himself in holy of holies is blasphemous. I think the image of God projected by Judaism is completely misunderstood as well, and it fails to realize that God is merely a subjective feeling about self as it is projected on the environment by the individual self.


    This feeling about self in the environment centers and orients itself by the individual feeling itself in the self of environment, and thus God is nothing more than an anthropological concept for man. It can not be anymore than this, and the function of believing in a divine or abstract being is determined by a pleasure motive in man. A pleasure motive in man, which exists in mankind to mitigate and suppress the pain and suffering of life.


    The empirical and phenomenal world is the "limit" of all that is metaphysical and ontological. Anything that lies beyond these worlds must accord themselves with the operations, dynamic laws, and functions of the empirical world. It is the empirical world upon which we can sense any understanding of an abstract being.


    That is the source of this abstraction of a divine self lies simply within the empirical world, and is determined by the mechanism of the pleasure principle. The pleasure principle is this abstract feeling designed and programmed in the mind of men to make them anticipate and desire good and pleasurable things will occur.


    This means that if they submit or surrender themselves to some abstract and imaginary world that some good and pleasurable feeling will be created. That in re-creating themselves in this abstract and imaginary world, through perceived good actions and morals, will win them the reward of having pleasure in heaven.


    It goes back to an infantile and juvenile desire and feeling which resides in humans from the time they are born, and its a safety net the fall back onto when they feel threatened or in trouble.


    Basically the belief in God is nothing but an anthropological projection of a defense mechanism, which is constructed in accordance with the pleasure principle as it acts on our behaviors, thoughts, and feelings pertained to the things we sense and perceive in the empirical world.
    Remeber that Judaism DOES have an abstract conceptualization of God, and also you should note that almost all Deistic religions have a hierarchial system were the ' priest ' ' animist ' ' chosen one ' etc, interpret the words of the almighty. One only can theorise about the origin of this phenomena, but it would be hard to dig it's origing from the depths of man evolution.
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    Veteran Member Neanderthal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teyrn View Post
    God is supposed to be vague, that's one of the central ideas of the Bible. Biblegod is not philosophergod to be overly rationalized about, which is something that's always puzzled me: "take it on faith" is entirely inappropriate a way, for me at least, to approach questions of the divine.

    I perfectly well understand the idea, i.e. that the biblegod is mostly incommunicado except in a generic sense through the workings of nature or specifically through his preferred oracles (or even pagan wizards like Balaam) from time-to-time. This just leaves me scratching my head a bit; the Bible clearly presents the divine being capable of communicating but, for whatever reason, he has to rely on priests to do it for him (and the occasional prophet).
    If you read the bible well enough you'll find that we are Gods sinful child, and in order to comunicate with him, one should devote his entire life to this propose (i.e. purge our sins) That is the role of the scholars, priests and such, obviously they have a secret agenda, but they excuse their existance on religion by this.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hellhammer View Post
    If you read the bible well enough you'll find that we are Gods sinful child, and in order to comunicate with him, one should devote his entire life to this propose (i.e. purge our sins) That is the role of the scholars, priests and such, obviously they have a secret agenda, but they excuse their existance on religion by this.
    What's the secret agenda of the clerics, to keep people stupid?

    Anyways, I look at Abrahamic religion sort of like this:

    Archaic Yahwehism => Rabbinic (Talmudic) Judaism
    => Non-talmudic Judaism (Karaite Jews)
    => Christianity
    => Samaritanism (yes they are still around and have their own variation of Yahwehism)
    Etc.

    The sin/guilt component is a component in all Abrahamic religions but only Christianity takes it to the level of the ridiculous.

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    Veteran Member Neanderthal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teyrn View Post
    What's the secret agenda of the clerics, to keep people stupid?

    Anyways, I look at Abrahamic religion sort of like this:

    Archaic Yahwehism => Rabbinic (Talmudic) Judaism
    => Non-talmudic Judaism (Karaite Jews)
    => Christianity
    => Samaritanism (yes they are still around and have their own variation of Yahwehism)

    The sin/guilt component is a component in all Abrahamic religions but only Christianity takes it to the level of the ridiculous.
    Pretty much, to keep people under their control, yes.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hellhammer View Post
    Pretty much, to keep people under their control, yes.
    By keeping them ignorant in other words; this was one of the charges of Luther iirc.

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    My Countship is not of this world Comte Arnau's Avatar
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    Let me pose an innocent question. If next decade a gamma ray reached the Earth and all traces of living population ceased to exist, will there still be a God?
    < La Catalogne peut se passer de l'univers entier, et ses voisins ne peuvent se passer d'elle. > Voltaire

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    Quote Originally Posted by Count Arnau View Post
    Let me pose an innocent question. If next decade a gamma ray reached the Earth and all traces of living population ceased to exist, will there still be a God?
    Trick innocent question as who would be around to contemplate the aftereffects of a burst of gamma ray radiation?


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    Quote Originally Posted by Teyrn View Post
    Trick innocent question as who would be around to contemplate the aftereffects of a burst of gamma ray radiation?

    God?
    < La Catalogne peut se passer de l'univers entier, et ses voisins ne peuvent se passer d'elle. > Voltaire

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    Quote Originally Posted by Count Arnau View Post
    God?
    Comically, I think his reaction would be "oops."

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