The veil/head cover in monotheistic religions

[Mary]

"It must be known, that this covering of the head hath principle relation to the face, which is the best
and most conspicuous part of the head..."
(Joseph Hall, 1660)

Joseph Hall (1 July 1574 – 8 September 1656) was an English bishop, satirist and moralist. His contemporaries knew him as a devotional writer, and a high-profile controversialist of the early 1640s. In church politics, he tended in fact to a middle way.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Hall_(bishop)

"It being the custom then to cover the faces of those that were put to any shame...The man's face is
used well to be uncovered...But the woman is subject unto him..."
(Richard Baxter, 1695)

Richard Baxter (12 November 1615 – 8 December 1691) was an English Puritan church leader, poet, hymn-writer,[1] theologian, and controversialist. Dean Stanley called him "the chief of English Protestant Schoolmen". After some false starts, he made his reputation by his ministry at Kidderminster, and at around the same time began a long and prolific career as theological writer. After the Restoration he refused preferment, while retaining a non-separatist presbyterian approach, and became one of the most influential leaders of the nonconformists, spending time in prison.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Baxter

"...Divines think, that the face is that part of the head, which the Apostle here intendeth should be
covered...with a veil..."
(Matthew Poole, Annotations, 1700)

Matthew Poole (1624–1679) was an English Nonconformist theologian.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matthew_Poole

"But every woman who...prays or prophesies without a veil on her face...disclaims subjection..."
(John Wesley, Explanatory Notes, 1757)

John Wesley ( /ˈwɛslɪ/; 28 June [O.S. 17 June] 1703 – 2 March 1791) was a Church of England cleric and Christian theologian. Wesley is largely credited, along with his brother Charles Wesley, as founding the Methodist movement which began when he took to open-air preaching in a similar manner to George Whitefield. In contrast to George Whitefield's Calvinism, Wesley embraced the Arminian doctrines that were dominant in the 18th-century Church of England. Methodism in both forms was a highly successful evangelical movement in the United Kingdom, which encouraged people to experience Jesus Christ personally.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Wesley

"Now the Corinthian women, in imitation of the heathen women...did cast off their veils, discovered
their faces..."
(William Burkitt, Expository Notes, 1832)

William Burkitt (25 July 1650 in Hitcham, Suffolk, England – 24 October 1703, Essex) was a biblical expositor and vicar in Dedham, Essex, England.

He studied at Pembroke Hall, Cambridge, earning a B. A. in 1668 and M. A. in 1672.[1] He became a Church of England curate at Milden, Suffolk, about 1672, and vicar of Dedham in 1692. Burkitt was also rector of Milden, near Lavenham, from 1672 to 1703.

Burkitt is known for his Bible commentary, Expository Notes with Practical Observations on the New Testament (Gospels published 1700, Acts to Revelation published 1703). Matthew Henry wrote in the preface to his commentary that it "met with very good acceptance among serious people" and that it would "do great service to the church." In fact, he went on to say that Burkitt's Exposition was the inspiration for his own commentary on the Old Testament, to complement Burkitt's work on the New Testament. Charles Spurgeon regarded Burkitt's commentary as a "goodly volume," and recommended "attentive perusal" of it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Burkitt

"It was required in females that they should cover their faces whenever they appeared in public..."
(Lucius Robinson Paige, 1867)

Lucius Robinson Paige (March 8, 1802-1896) was a Universalist minister, biblical scholar, historian, and public official.

http://www25.uua.org/uuhs/duub/artic...ciuspaige.html

"...in the holy congregations of earth woman veils her face in the presence of man...The words 'covered'
and 'uncovered' should be rendered veiled and unveiled, for a woman may cover her head with a turban
and yet not conceal her face with a veil."
(F.C. Cook, 1881)

The Rev. Frederick Charles Cook was born at Milbrook Dec. 1, 1804 and died at Exeter June 22, 1889. He studied at St. John's College. Cambridge (B.A., 1831; M.A., 1844), and was ordained in 1839. He was inspector of schools, prebendary of St. Paul's from 1856-65, preacher at Lincoln's Inn from 1860-80 and prebendary in Lincoln cathedral 1861-64. He became chaplain to the Queen in 1857, canon residentiary of Exeter in 1864, chaplain to the bishop of London in 1869 and precentor of Exeter 1872.

http://www.ccel.org/c/cook_fc/

All quotes from here: http://www.kingdombaptist.org/sermon...heir+Faces.pdf.

[Mary]

Didascalia Apostolorum (or just Didascalia) is a Christian treatise which belongs to the genre of the Church Orders. It presents itself as being written by the Twelve Apostles at the time of the Council of Jerusalem, however, scholars agree that it was actually a composition of the 3rd century, perhaps around 230 AD.[1]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Didascalia_Apostolorum

[[26]] Thou therefore that art a Christian, (p. 9) do not imitate such women; but if thou wouldst be a faithful woman, please thy husband only. And when thou walkest in the street, cover thy head with thy robe, that by reason of thy veil thy great beauty may be hidden. And adorn not thy natural face; but walk with downcast looks, being veiled.

[i. 9] And take heed that thou bathe not in a bath with men. For when there is a women's bath in the city or in the village, a believing woman may not bathe in a bath with men. For if thou coverest thy face from strange men with a veil of modesty, how then canst thou go in with strange men to a bath? But if there is no women's bath, and thou art constrained to bathe in a bath of men and women, -- which indeed is unfitting -- bathe with modesty and shame, and with bashfulness and moderation: and not at all times, nor every day, and not at midday; but let there be an appointed season for thee to bathe at, (to wit) at the tenth hour. For it behoves thee, as a believing woman, by every means to fly from the vain and curious gaze of the many which is met with in a bath.

[i. 10] And thy strife with all, and especially with thy husband, check and restrain as a believing woman; lest thy husband, if he be a heathen, be offended by reason of thee and blaspheme against God, and thou receive a Woe from God:� for, Woe to them, by reason of whom the name of God is blasphemed [[28]] among the gentiles [Isa 52.5; Rom 2.24]; or (lest) again, if thy husband be a believer, he be constrained, as one who knows the Scriptures, and say to thee the word from Wisdom: It is better to sit upon a corner of the roof than to dwell with a prating and quarrelsome woman within the house [Prov 21.9-10]. For it behoves women by a veil of modesty and humility to shew (their) fear of God, for the conversion and the increase of faith of them that are without, (both) of men and women.

Now if we have admonished and instructed you in brief, our sisters and our daughters and our members, do you as wise women seek and choose out for yourselves those things that are good and honourable and without reproach in worldly conversation; and learn and know those things whereby you may arrive at the kingdom of our Lord, and may find rest, pleasing Him with good works.

http://www.bombaxo.com/didascalia.html

The Apostolic Constitutions (or Constitutions of the Holy Apostles, lat. Constitutiones Apostolorum) is a Christian collection of eight treatises which belongs to genre of the Church Orders. The work can be dated from 375 to 380 AD. The provenience is usually regarded as Syria, probably Antioch.[1] The author is unknown, even if since James Ussher it was considered to be the same author of the letters of Pseudo-Ignatius, perhaps the 4th century Eunomian bishop Julian of Cilicia.[2]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apostolic_Constitutions

You, therefore, who are Christian women, do not imitate such as these. But thou who designest to be faithful to thine own husband, take care to please him alone. And when thou art in the streets, cover thy head; for by such a covering thou wilt avoid being viewed of idle persons. Do not paint thy face, which is God’s workmanship; for there is no part of thee which wants ornament, inasmuch as all things which God has made are very good. But the lascivious additional adorning of what is already good is an affront to the bounty of the Creator. Look downward when thou walkest abroad, veiling thyself as becomes women.
That a Woman Must Not Bathe with Men.

IX. Avoid also that disorderly practice of bathing in the same place with men; for many are the nets of the evil one. And let not a Christian woman bathe with an hermaphrodite; for if she is to veil her face, and conceal it with modesty from strange men, how can she bear to enter naked into the bath together with men? But if the bath be appropriated to women, let her bathe orderly, modestly, and moderately. But let her not bathe without occasion, nor much, nor often, nor in the middle of the day, nor, if possible, every day; and let the tenth hour of the day be the set time for such seasonable bathing. For it is convenient that thou, who art a Christian woman, shouldst ever constantly avoid a curiosity which has many eyes.

http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/anf07.ix.ii.iii.html

[orangepulp]

This is happening while millions of muslims in Africa are dying because of hunger.

Now, we the secular countries are supposedly the evils because we don't wear hijab, and these wahhabi cocaine addicts are the real muslims and you live "true islam" in UAE?

So you give some of you salary to the people in Africa?? The least I give is 2.5% of my savings each year. Some of the Arabs pracitices should not be generalized to the entire population.

[riverman]

@ Mary

And yet this is not how Christianity views a womans place, or her obediance to the man. You can present all the literature you want but no Christian church, Protestant/Catholic/Orthodox, is adhering to the ideas that you are espousing. Your ideas on the subject are "fringe" at best, they're really beyond fringe even, IMO. Be that as it may, you cannot refute the historical lack of Christian usage of the niqab or burqa.

[Mary]

@ Mary

And yet this is not how Christianity views a womans place, or her obediance to the man. You can present all the literature you want but no Christian church, Protestant/Catholic/Orthodox, is adhering to the ideas that you are espousing. Your ideas on the subject are "fringe" at best, they're really beyond fringe even, IMO. Be that as it may, you cannot refute the historical lack of Christian usage of the niqab or burqa.

1) That's not a relevant argument. A Christian should follow the Bible. Not what other people do or don't do.

2) These are not fringe sources. These are some of the most important Church Fathers (Chrysostom, Clement of Alexandria, Tertullian). And they all say that a Christian woman should veil her face. There is no debate on the issue.

3) The Anglos I quoted, are all theologians or important bishops. As you can see, they are in full agreement with the Bible and the early Church Fathers on this issue.

4) Go read the Bible. It's all there. I've quoted it in this thread.

[Aemma]

I don't know if they want to wear it but how can they be a real Christian and criticize the practice when it is a part of Christian teachings. Many Christians are not aware of their own religions teachings.

Well just because a Christian is no longer required to wear a head covering it doesn't make them *less* of a Christian, orangepulp. For a Roman Catholic (I cannot speak on behalf of Protestant denominations for I have no idea what their requirements are/were) it actually makes them *more* of a Catholic (hence Christian) since the Church's teachings changed in this respect during the early 1960s. So if anything, a Roman Catholic *does indeed know* her own religious teachings very well if she does NOT wear a head covering while attending Mass or being out in public. You must understand the difference between Islam and Roman Catholicism: Roman Catholics obtain their direction not only from the Bible BUT also from Tradition. One is just as important as the other in the Roman Catholic faith.

It is true that up until the 1960's hats were a requirement of women attending a Roman Catholic Mass.Things changed during the 1960's what with the more progressive notions offered by the Second Vatican Council and the coincidental secularisation of Christian countries such as Canada and the USA. It was not unheard of during those times, the 1960s and 1970s anyway, to see young women called to religious orders to go around bareheaded. Today one is hardpressed to see a nun walking around my town anymore, let alone one who is bareheaded. :/

[Aemma]

1) That's not a relevant argument. A Christian should follow the Bible. Not what other people do or don't do.

...


4) Go read the Bible. It's all there. I've quoted it in this thread.

You really have no clue about Roman Catholicism do you.

[Mary]

Well just because a Christian is no longer required to wear a head covering it doesn't make them *less* of a Christian, orangepulp. For a Roman Catholic (I cannot speak on behalf of Protestant denominations for I have no idea what their requirements are/were) it actually makes them *more* of a Catholic (hence Christian) since the Church's teachings changed in this respect during the early 1960s. So if anything, a Roman Catholic *does indeed know* her own religious teachings very well if she does NOT wear a head covering while attending Mass or being out in public. You must understand the difference between Islam and Roman Catholicism: Roman Catholics obtain their direction not only from the Bible BUT also from Tradition. One is just as important as the other in the Roman Catholic faith.

It is true that up until the 1960's hats were a requirement of women attending a Roman Catholic Mass.Things changed during the 1960's what with the more progressive notions offered by the Second Vatican Council and the coincidental secularisation of Christian countries such as Canada and the USA. It was not unheard of during those times, the 1960s and 1970s anyway, to see young women called to religious orders to go around bareheaded. Today one is hardpressed to see a nun walking around my town anymore, let alone one who is bareheaded. :/

Let's say that Catholics are not required to veil (they are, the Catholic Church just doesn't require it to let them attend Mass, which is moot since women don't belong in church anyway), don't you think they should do so voluntarily? What does it say about a woman that she chooses to go around uncovered?

[Mary]

You really have no clue about Roman Catholicism do you.

This applies to you as well: http://www.theapricity.com/forum/sho...&postcount=414

[Aemma]

Thank you for the background, orangepulp! I guess most Christians barely know anything about the book whose guidelines they claim to follow. I believe religion is a very personal thing, and one everyone should respect, as long as it does not cause the alienation of certain liberties from other individuals. I personally have no problem with those who choose to wear the veil. If they feel that by doing so they are being true to what they believe in, then they really should do it. It is just something that should not be condoned or promoted, it is merely a personal choice. And I think that people who are honest with themselves about their beliefs are most noble.

That's a sweeping indictment! Are you speaking as a Christian yourself or as of some other faith?