German Genocide - Thirty Years War

[The Lawspeaker]

The Eighty Years War was just such a complicated war fought about religion, taxes, privileges, personal vendetta's between noblemen (all at the same time). There were protestants fighting for the Spanish and Catholics for the Dutch. Mercenaries don't care about religion: they only care about who pays the most and they would often turn coats in the midst of battle.

[Loki]

Joe. You wouldn't understand: don't bother. If it hadn't been for the Turks bothering the Spanish in the Mediterranean before we had the naval power and the Ottomans fucking up the Balkans and Eastern Europe during the Thirty Years War there is no doubt in my mind that we would have lost the war.

Because if they hadn't that would have meant that during the Eighty Years War the Spanish could have unleashed their full force on us and no divided France or weak England could have stopped that... never mind the Dutch rebels.

Precisely, very true and correct.

[Joe McCarthy]

Joe. You wouldn't understand: don't bother. If it hadn't been for the Ottomans bothering the Spanish in the Mediterranean before we had the naval power and them fucking up the Balkans and Eastern Europe during the Thirty Years War there is no doubt in my mind that we would have lost the war.

Because if they hadn't that would have meant that during the Eighty Years War the Spanish could have unleashed their full force on us and no divided France or weak England could have stopped that... never mind the Dutch rebels.

I frankly don't see it. During the same time period of the Eighty Years War the Ottoman fleet was annihilated at Lepanto by a Holy League led by Habsburg Spain. The Ottomans weren't even officially a belligerent in the Eighty Years War, unlike England and a few other states, and their actions in the region around the Balkans were mostly to fight the Poles, who were barely involved in the Thirty Years War. How do we get Northern Europeans prevented from getting annihilated out of that?

[The Lawspeaker]

I think we should compile a list of general European wars and then we would see that it would start in the 16th century (with the 17th century seeing a real explosion) and then seeing the 18th century (lots of wars but they were generally more contained then before), until Napoleon and World War I and II.

[The Lawspeaker]

I frankly don't see it. During the same time period of the Eighty Years War the Ottoman fleet was annihilated at Lepanto by a Holy League led by Habsburg Spain. The Ottomans weren't even officially a belligerent in the Eighty Years War, unlike England and a few other states, and their actions in the region around the Balkans were mostly to fight the Poles, who were barely involved in the Thirty Years War. How do we get Northern Europeans prevented from getting annihilated out of that?

Joe. If you don't understand European history: don't bother. You need to look at what happens in the sidelines. How could it be that a couple of small provinces aided by a weak England and a divided France (between it's numerous civil wars) could hold out against the biggest power the world had ever seen ?

[The Lawspeaker]

I think we should compile a list of general European wars and then we would see that it would start in the 16th century (with the 17th century seeing a real explosion) and then seeing the 18th century (lots of wars but they were generally more contained then before), until Napoleon and World War I and II.

Here we go: European Wars of Religion.

And then France trying to consolidate it's power all over Europe in the 17th and early to mid- 18th century: Franco-Dutch War, Nine Years' War, War of the Spanish Succession, War of the Austrian Succession, Seven Years' War.

And then the French Revolutionary Wars and the Napoleonic Wars.

Then a moment of relative peace and quiet and then the Revolutions of 1848.

Then peace and quiet and then after the Franco-German War which was just that: a Franco-German affair a moment of underlying tensions leading to what could be called another European Civil War.

[Joe McCarthy]

Joe. If you don't understand European history: don't bother. You need to look at what happens in the sidelines. How could it be that a couple of small provinces aided by a weak England and a divided France (between it's numerous civil wars) could hold out against the biggest power the world had ever seen ?

Certainly not with decisive aid from the Ottoman Empire. In the early going of the Eighty Years War the Ottomans were bogged down in conflict with Safavid Persia. In fact, it started about the same time the Treaty of Utrecht was signed.

[The Lawspeaker]

Certainly not with decisive aid from the Ottoman Empire. In the early going of the Eighty Years War the Ottomans were bogged down in conflict with Sefavid Persia. In fact, it ended about the same time the Treaty of Utrecht was signed.

That's because you don't understand European history at all. You don't look at the big picture but only at separate little conflicts.

[Joe McCarthy]

That's because you don't understand European history at all. You don't look at the big picture but only at separate little conflicts.

No, I'm considering the conflicts the Ottomans were involved in from 1568-1648, particularly with Catholic powers, and I don't see how their role was decisive in the subject we're discussing. So far you've yet to convince me otherwise, but you have failed to explain how the Ottomans did all of this while telling me I don't know anything.

Congratulations.

[The Lawspeaker]

No, I'm considering the conflicts the Ottomans were involved in from 1568-1648, particularly with Catholic powers, and I don't see how their role was decisive in the subject we're discussing. So far you've yet to convince me otherwise, but you have failed to explain how the Ottomans did all of this while telling me I don't know anything.

Congratulations.

Well. Look up European Wars of Religion and then sort it out for yourself. But then again, knowing you, you wouldn't even be able to locate the position of the Ottoman Empire on a 17th century European map nor look up information about it's involvement in European Wars.