Dutch directness

[brunette]

It is said that Dutch have no sense for style (and that is.. when you compare us to the French or the Italians or the Austrians or even our own Southerners (Belgium) certainly true) but I have never met people that were dressed worse then in England. Although it could have to do with location, social class and thus income.

That's true, the low class here look low class. Not here meaning Chatham but in general. Take Brazil or whatever there is clear differences in race and social status there but they all dress the same.

[Padre Organtino]

I am Kakhetian (Easternest part of Georgia) and apart from being known as semi-Iranian winemakers Kakhetians are also famous for their supposed "rudeness" which simply means that my folks tend to be open and straightforward (and like to swear a lot).

[Treffie]

And no, the English are actually the opposite. You can never trust their word, until you've known them for quite some time. They'd tell you nice things to make you feel comfortable ... but be always armed with a good dose of skepticism in your dealings with them

That would depend on what part of England they come from. Notherners are much more straight talking than their southern counterparts. Quite similar to Scots and Welsh in that respect.

[jerney]

That would depend on what part of England they come from. Notherners are much more straight talking than their southern counterparts. Quite similar to Scots and Welsh in that respect.

I have to disagree with him anyway. He's obviously not familiar with the fashion sense of many Slavs and Balkans because I really doubt anyone in the UK could compete with them

[rhiannon]

Members are often unable to understand people like Civis Batavi, but directness = openness = honesty = no secrets = comfort

Dutch manner of speaking

Despite being basically reserved, the Dutch have a manner of speaking that may startle you with its directness. They look you straight in the eye and can sound very abrupt, especially when they are speaking English or another foreign language and cannot express all the shades of meaning they would be able to express in their own language. They do not mean to be impolite, and their habit of coming to the point quickly can actually make things easier for the foreigner.

The Dutch are seldom deferential in their speech simply on the basis of the other person’s age or station in life. Younger people, in particular, say what they think without cloaking their words in a mantle of respect. If you could understand Dutch, you would probably be astonished to hear how the prime minister is interviewed for television every week. The interviewer addresses him as an equal, posing direct, tough questions, which are often answered with equal directness.

The Dutch avoid superlatives and tend to be negative, even about themselves. Compliments are offered sparingly, and to say that something is ‘not bad’ is to praise it. For the foreigner, this has the advantage that you do not need to worry too much about saying something that will hurt people’s feelings. The Dutch will argue, but seldom take offence.

Their idea of a good time is expressed in the word ‘gezellig’. This describes a feeling of warm, relaxed congeniality. People are valued for being themselves and not putting on airs.

It's awesome. Direct communication is infinitely preferable to the word games played by many....whether it's IRL or on a board such as this one.

Maybe this is why I like Civis

Perhaps there's more Dutch in the ol' Woodpile than my mother let on, lol

[rhiannon]

The English are not that direct, though.

I do note in my experiences with the English members of this board (not all of them of course), as well as those I've met in person, confirm the fact that their manner of communication is much more indirect.

[Mosov]

Dutch people I've met tend to be very worldly and a bit more "open" than Germans...

[Albion]

but only in the Netherlands has a friend phoned me up on my birthday to say that she simply did not feel like coming to my party, and that she would rather go for a walk in the dunes.

In Germany, and certainly in the US - not to mention England - the friend would certainly have resorted to a white lie in this case.

Yep

The Dutch however believe you must never lie to your friends, that it is always best to tell them what you think clearly and directly.

If I did that.... I soon wouldn't have many friends.

When I went to England after six years in the Netherlands, I had to get used to the fact that you never just tell someone what you think there. In the beginning I did not always understand exactly what the English were trying to say. "That’s an unusual outfit" did not mean, "Those clothes are very unique," but rather, "You look ridiculous!" And, "That's an interesting thought," is just a polite way of saying, "That makes no sense all."

Well it depends if you're in the north or south. Northerners are a bit more straight forward and we ask you what the hell you're wearing, southerners go round in circles to address the matter and Midlanders are in the middle of course.

Even tourists notice that people are much more polite on the London Underground than on a tram in Amsterdam. If you step on a British person's toes, to your amazement he will say, "Sorry." And the way English people queue up is another matter altogether.

I've noticed that. Whenever another person gets in the way both people will say sorry, even I do it. I suppose it's just subconscious politeness taught to us from birth.

That is why courtesy is easily seen as insincerity in the Netherlands.

Interesting. I wonder how Dutch people react to pompous Londoners then.

In English class society as well good manners were perfected by the upper echelons; they also served to screen them off from the lower classes. Mats Deutschmann, a Swedish anglo-expert, concluded in a 2003 study on English courtesy (Apologizing in British English) that those who often say sorry, pardon and excuse me underline their social position, refinement and high class in doing so.

Erm.... no... The Swedish "Anglo expert" doesn't know us well at all. Even low class people will use manners most of the time.

There's a few distinctions though - higher class are more likely to say "parden" (emphasising the -en slightly) whilst lower class say "Pard'n".
Another one is "excuse me" which becomes abbreviated to (sigh) - " 'scuse" quite often, especially amongst young people.

"It is primarily the powerful who excuse themselves to the powerless," Deutschmann says.

Nope. Just the people with manners.

[Albion]

"I say what I think" – and bugger anyone who thinks differently - sums the Dutch attitude up nicely for me. Of course everyone should be able to say what they think, but it matters how you say it. Courtesy is also the art of making unpleasant things clear to others in a pleasant manner.
Outward forms of courtesy and social conventions should never be a goal in themselves of course, but serve as an expression of respect for others. It would certainly do no harm for people to be taught that a bit more at home and at school.

Maybe we could learn a few things from the Dutch, a hybrid where we say what we think but with manners.

So Dutch - "your clothes are shit" becomes English "your clothes are shit, if you don't mind me saying".

I’ve said a great deal here about English courtesy, but in the explicit class society this can also be condescending and accompanied by an icy aloofness. You are certainly not likely to experience that in the Netherlands, where the level landscape traditionally extends into social life.
When the Dutch are friendly, it usually really comes from the heart, and that is the best form of courtesy.

Nah, the class system is fine. If the aristocracy start being patronising you just switch to Latinate / upper class English.
I switch between different types of English all the time, the Scots-like mumbling is what I command my dogs in.

[Albion]

English: A lot of those look familiar... Damn, my secret's out.
Translation: Oh shit, the jig is up!... They're onto me!

An example with me is when someone shows me something unimpressive, it's not nice to let them down so I usually end up saying "yeah, it's great... really good...." when meaning "no, it's totally shit, what the bloody hell were you thinking?".
Usually you can tell by someone's face whether they're bullshitting or not, but I have a permanent poker face so not with me.

And no, the English are actually the opposite. You can never trust their word, until you've known them for quite some time. They'd tell you nice things to make you feel comfortable ... but be always armed with a good dose of skepticism in your dealings with them

You just don't know English properly yet, its the only language which requires you to learn psychology.

Remember that I told you that that I felt a bit sceptical of the true intentions of people when I was in England ?

We're all evil, plotting schemers.

That's one thing I like about Australians: they say exactly what they feel and in the roughest way possible.

Yeah, it comes off as rude a lot of the time. I have to bite my tongue around Aussies a lot of the time. Even Aussie mates will come straight out with things, it's just not cool.

European guys dress different to English guys too i've noticed that. It's real easy to spot a German or Dutch from a English due to the clothing.

Simple is better.

It is said that Dutch have no sense for style (and that is.. when you compare us to the French or the Italians or the Austrians or even our own Southerners (Belgium) certainly true) but I have never met people that were dressed worse then in England. Although it could have to do with location, social class and thus income.

Yeah, yeah, at least our clothing is practical.

That would depend on what part of England they come from. Notherners are much more straight talking than their southern counterparts. Quite similar to Scots and Welsh in that respect.

This is true.