Welsh people: Who overlaps with them?

[Septentrion]

This is Anglo propaganda, there is a higher neolithic survival in Wales and the Silurians were a tribe noted by their dark looks but the other tribes were more 'caledonian' according to the Romans. There is a dark stereotype but this is an Anglo derived historical 'otherness' inherited over centuries.

I agree. The truth is however that the Anglo-Saxons were actually worse than Vikings in their treatment towards the Celts or indigenous people of British Isles. They actually established an Apartheid system which favored socially and biologically Germanic males. They did live side by side, but were separated by lineage although intermixing eventually took place. Nevertheless, Germanic culture came out much more dominant. Anglo-Saxons were the first ones to written in Germanic tongues. Though on most of continental civilized, Germanic or Barbarian laws were written in Latin speech, some even adopted completely Latin ways ( the darn Franks, my ancestors). The death sentence of a Brythonic male was a lot harsher than of a Saxon. Additionally you see that Brythonic folk lived in the less desirable areas ( mountainous areas, caves, etc….ha!ha!ha!) or fled westwards. While Saxons lived in the more fertile areas and better agricultural lands ( the plains, etc…) in the east. To this day, it’s in those areas that Celtic speech, culture, religion persisted while Germanic speech and culture hold sway everywhere else.

[Septentrion]

I have read in anthro forums that they are predominantly Atlanto-Med and are famous for their dark hairs...but in UK, people from Welsh origin didn't look to me much different from English...

No country in continental Europe is predominantly (60% and over) Atlanto - Mediterranean in race. Ok. Wales and some parts of the historical Celtic Fringe only have comparatively a higher frequency of darker hair than the most Germanic regions of the British Isles ( eastern regions of England and Scotland). Wales is not darker than most Europe, as some idiots claim. That’s all. Reason for this, is explainable, as Anglo - Saxon people originally came from the northernmost parts of Germany and the Netherlands, as well as what’s now called Denmark. These are areas where blond people are very frequent.

[Septentrion]

Other British Isles, French, and Iberians.

Not Iberians! What's wrong with you?

[Septentrion]

I have read in anthro forums that they are predominantly Atlanto-Med and are famous for their dark hairs...but in UK, people from Welsh origin didn't look to me much different from English...

Besides the English, Scottish, Irish, you have the Western Germans and North - Western French who are closest to them on the continent (POBI study 2015). The English differ from them by having a higher frequencies of genetic signatures from Northern and North - Western Germans as well as Danish folks.

[Watersater79]

Modern Welsh are 30% Anglo-Saxon genetically! Go figure.

The Scots are apparently 30% ‘Anglo-Saxon’ as well, which I don’t really buy. That really is only in a modern context. There has been a lot of English migration into Wales over the last 150 years. There are plenty of those in north or SW Wales who don’t have English ancestry/DNA, however.

[Watersater79]

If you go by genetics the people that overlap with the Welsh the most are in this order; the English, the Scots and then the Irish.

Surely the Welsh would overlap the most with the southern Scottish considering said population are mostly Brythonic. I also would have thought that they would have overlapped with the Irish more than the English. A lot of the Welsh GedMatch kits seem to cluster heavily with the Irish, anyhow. My pal from North Wales got a shedload of Irish on LivingDNA. Something alone the lines of 40% of his DNA was of the ‘Ireland’ cluster. But I guess that geography ensured some form of genetic drift to take place whereby the Gaels would differ from the Britons, and the English have a significant amount of Brythonic admixture, even if it’s 30%, rather than 60% (as was previously surmised) of the average English genome.
I wish we knew more about Scotland and how extensive the Goidelic settlement was. What is now the east of the country was, ofc, the kingdom of the Picts, but that area now is overwhelmingly chock-a-block with Gaelic names. However, the eastern Scottish don’t seem to cluster with the Irish all that much. Maybe it was a case of an ‘elite’ settlement, with the Pictish locals adopting their ‘Gaelic’ ways. Obviously that appears to be the same for the Britons in the south as well. There is no doubt there was Gaelic settlement in the extreme southwest of Scotland (Galloway), but there is little evidence there was further migration inland (into the likes of Lanarkshire). The main settlements of central southern Scotland all maintained those Brittonic names; Glasgow, Renfrew, Lanark, Linlithgow. Lothian also can’t be derived from anything other than Brittonic.
But it is fascinating that even when Robert Burns was alive, Gaelic was spoken within his vicinity of origin.

[Creoda]

Surely the Welsh would overlap the most with the southern Scottish considering said population are mostly Brythonic. I also would have thought that they would have overlapped with the Irish more than the English. A lot of the Welsh GedMatch kits seem to cluster heavily with the Irish, anyhow. My pal from North Wales got a shedload of Irish on LivingDNA. Something alone the lines of 40% of his DNA was of the ‘Ireland’ cluster. But I guess that geography ensured some form of genetic drift to take place whereby the Gaels would differ from the Britons, and the English have a significant amount of Brythonic admixture, even if it’s 30%, rather than 60% (as was previously surmised) of the average English genome.
I wish we knew more about Scotland and how extensive the Goidelic settlement was. What is now the east of the country was, ofc, the kingdom of the Picts, but that area now is overwhelmingly chock-a-block with Gaelic names. However, the eastern Scottish don’t seem to cluster with the Irish all that much. Maybe it was a case of an ‘elite’ settlement, with the Pictish locals adopting their ‘Gaelic’ ways. Obviously that appears to be the same for the Britons in the south as well. There is no doubt there was Gaelic settlement in the extreme southwest of Scotland (Galloway), but there is little evidence there was further migration inland (into the likes of Lanarkshire). The main settlements of central southern Scotland all maintained those Brittonic names; Glasgow, Renfrew, Lanark, Linlithgow. Lothian also can’t be derived from anything other than Brittonic.
But it is fascinating that even when Robert Burns was alive, Gaelic was spoken within his vicinity of origin.

42 ethnic Welsh gedmatch kits are indeed closest to Scottish.

K36

Distance to: Welsh
1.48347565 Scottish
1.67949397 British_Ulster
1.87757823 Irish_Leinster
1.94061846 Scottish_Orkney
1.96690112 Scottish_East
1.98519520 Scottish_Southwest
2.32587618 Irish
2.54120050 Irish_Munster
2.74770814 Irish_Connacht
2.87518695 English_Southwest
3.55503868 English_Northeast
3.57548598 Scottish_Highlands
3.66274487 English_Lancashire
3.98948618 English_Yorkshire
3.99576025 Cornish
4.00049997 English
4.14254753 English_West-Midlands
4.48725974 Irish_Ulster
4.60922987 English_Southeast
4.97123727 English_East-Midlands
5.13598092 English_East
5.48691170 French_Brittany
6.62923827 Dutch
6.95379033 Dutch_Central
7.62607369 Dutch_South

Distance to: Welsh
1.13712990 18.00% Irish_Ulster + 82.00% Scottish
1.14991683 62.60% Scottish + 37.40% Scottish_Orkney
1.16915007 38.40% Irish_Leinster + 61.60% Scottish
1.18166120 97.20% Scottish + 2.80% Spanish_Cantabria
1.18296811 36.60% English_Lancashire + 63.40% Irish
1.18691038 41.60% English_Lancashire + 58.40% Irish_Connacht
1.20031290 55.20% British_Ulster + 44.80% Irish_Leinster
1.20038773 33.40% English_West-Midlands + 66.60% Irish
1.21427097 30.00% Irish + 70.00% Scottish
1.22315392 25.40% Irish_Connacht + 74.60% Scottish
1.23148628 52.20% English_West-Midlands + 47.80% Irish_Ulster
1.23155933 38.40% English_West-Midlands + 61.60% Irish_Connacht
1.23605083 27.00% Irish_Munster + 73.00% Scottish
1.24163291 48.60% English_Southwest + 51.40% Irish_Connacht
1.24355240 1.80% Basque_Spanish + 98.20% Scottish
1.24708789 2.40% French_South + 97.60% Scottish
1.25129678 34.00% English + 66.00% Irish
1.25549104 43.00% English_Southwest + 57.00% Irish
1.26564624 39.20% English + 60.80% Irish_Connacht
1.27064906 97.40% Scottish + 2.60% Spanish_Aragon

K13

Distance to: Welsh
1.31791502 Scottish
1.39075519 English_North
1.47271857 English_Southwest
2.21237429 English_Midlands
2.52556924 Irish
2.55779202 English_Southeast
3.15358526 Dutch
3.22756874 Dutch_Central
4.24778766 Dutch_North
4.43346366 German_Northwest
4.91902429 French_Brittany
5.23035372 Icelandic
5.41626255 Dutch_South
6.76547855 Flemish
6.79386488 Danish
6.90651866 Norwegian
7.39708726 Norwegian_Southcentral
7.54982781 Swedish_Götaland
9.00194979 Swedish_West-Svealand
9.35140096 French_North

Distance to: Welsh
0.36478932 2.20% Sardinian + 97.80% Scottish
0.37873596 63.60% English_Southwest + 36.40% Irish
0.41993452 6.00% French_South + 94.00% Scottish
0.44665343 20.20% French_Brittany + 79.80% Scottish
0.49370904 46.80% English_Southwest + 53.20% Scottish
0.52342669 95.00% Scottish + 5.00% Spanish_North
0.53345020 8.00% French_Central + 92.00% Scottish
0.58136171 95.60% Scottish + 4.40% Spanish_Central_&_South
0.58873648 4.80% Portuguese + 95.20% Scottish
0.65290528 31.20% Dutch_South + 68.80% Irish
0.65470318 26.60% Flemish + 73.40% Irish
0.65576721 5.80% Italian_Aosta_Valley + 94.20% Scottish
0.65858800 53.60% English_Midlands + 46.40% Irish
0.66004324 10.80% French_North + 89.20% Scottish
0.69401295 33.20% French_Brittany + 66.80% Irish
0.71469988 4.20% French_Aquitaine + 95.80% Scottish
0.72372586 8.60% German_Southwest + 91.40% Scottish
0.72379190 49.60% English_Southeast + 50.40% Irish
0.72545144 2.80% French_Corsica + 97.20% Scottish
0.73641999 4.00% Italian_North_Alpine + 96.00% Scottish

[Oliver109]

42 ethnic Welsh gedmatch kits are indeed closest to Scottish.

K36

Distance to: Welsh
1.48347565 Scottish
1.67949397 British_Ulster
1.87757823 Irish_Leinster
1.94061846 Scottish_Orkney
1.96690112 Scottish_East
1.98519520 Scottish_Southwest
2.32587618 Irish
2.54120050 Irish_Munster
2.74770814 Irish_Connacht
2.87518695 English_Southwest
3.55503868 English_Northeast
3.57548598 Scottish_Highlands
3.66274487 English_Lancashire
3.98948618 English_Yorkshire
3.99576025 Cornish
4.00049997 English
4.14254753 English_West-Midlands
4.48725974 Irish_Ulster
4.60922987 English_Southeast
4.97123727 English_East-Midlands
5.13598092 English_East
5.48691170 French_Brittany
6.62923827 Dutch
6.95379033 Dutch_Central
7.62607369 Dutch_South

Distance to: Welsh
1.13712990 18.00% Irish_Ulster + 82.00% Scottish
1.14991683 62.60% Scottish + 37.40% Scottish_Orkney
1.16915007 38.40% Irish_Leinster + 61.60% Scottish
1.18166120 97.20% Scottish + 2.80% Spanish_Cantabria
1.18296811 36.60% English_Lancashire + 63.40% Irish
1.18691038 41.60% English_Lancashire + 58.40% Irish_Connacht
1.20031290 55.20% British_Ulster + 44.80% Irish_Leinster
1.20038773 33.40% English_West-Midlands + 66.60% Irish
1.21427097 30.00% Irish + 70.00% Scottish
1.22315392 25.40% Irish_Connacht + 74.60% Scottish
1.23148628 52.20% English_West-Midlands + 47.80% Irish_Ulster
1.23155933 38.40% English_West-Midlands + 61.60% Irish_Connacht
1.23605083 27.00% Irish_Munster + 73.00% Scottish
1.24163291 48.60% English_Southwest + 51.40% Irish_Connacht
1.24355240 1.80% Basque_Spanish + 98.20% Scottish
1.24708789 2.40% French_South + 97.60% Scottish
1.25129678 34.00% English + 66.00% Irish
1.25549104 43.00% English_Southwest + 57.00% Irish
1.26564624 39.20% English + 60.80% Irish_Connacht
1.27064906 97.40% Scottish + 2.60% Spanish_Aragon

K13

Distance to: Welsh
1.31791502 Scottish
1.39075519 English_North
1.47271857 English_Southwest
2.21237429 English_Midlands
2.52556924 Irish
2.55779202 English_Southeast
3.15358526 Dutch
3.22756874 Dutch_Central
4.24778766 Dutch_North
4.43346366 German_Northwest
4.91902429 French_Brittany
5.23035372 Icelandic
5.41626255 Dutch_South
6.76547855 Flemish
6.79386488 Danish
6.90651866 Norwegian
7.39708726 Norwegian_Southcentral
7.54982781 Swedish_Götaland
9.00194979 Swedish_West-Svealand
9.35140096 French_North

Distance to: Welsh
0.36478932 2.20% Sardinian + 97.80% Scottish
0.37873596 63.60% English_Southwest + 36.40% Irish
0.41993452 6.00% French_South + 94.00% Scottish
0.44665343 20.20% French_Brittany + 79.80% Scottish
0.49370904 46.80% English_Southwest + 53.20% Scottish
0.52342669 95.00% Scottish + 5.00% Spanish_North
0.53345020 8.00% French_Central + 92.00% Scottish
0.58136171 95.60% Scottish + 4.40% Spanish_Central_&_South
0.58873648 4.80% Portuguese + 95.20% Scottish
0.65290528 31.20% Dutch_South + 68.80% Irish
0.65470318 26.60% Flemish + 73.40% Irish
0.65576721 5.80% Italian_Aosta_Valley + 94.20% Scottish
0.65858800 53.60% English_Midlands + 46.40% Irish
0.66004324 10.80% French_North + 89.20% Scottish
0.69401295 33.20% French_Brittany + 66.80% Irish
0.71469988 4.20% French_Aquitaine + 95.80% Scottish
0.72372586 8.60% German_Southwest + 91.40% Scottish
0.72379190 49.60% English_Southeast + 50.40% Irish
0.72545144 2.80% French_Corsica + 97.20% Scottish
0.73641999 4.00% Italian_North_Alpine + 96.00% Scottish

Welsh still look nothing like Scottish though, regardless of genetics Scots are more frequent in proportions of brunn, nordo brunn, nordo borreby and tronder while in Wales people are usually more atlantid and have significant proportions of paleo atlantids. Eye colour i believe is darker in twice as many Welsh as Scots.

[Septentrion]

The Scots are apparently 30% ‘Anglo-Saxon’ as well, which I don’t really buy. That really is only in a modern context. There has been a lot of English migration into Wales over the last 150 years. There are plenty of those in north or SW Wales who don’t have English ancestry/DNA, however.

Yes, they are. The Anglo-Saxons ( the English) subdued the Isles completely. Both the Scotch and Welsh are 30% genetically Anglo-Saxon due to forced or voluntary intermixture. You've forgotten that Anglian tribes settled in South - East Scotland. Additionally, if one went only by the male line (Y-DNA lineage), this would account over 50% to be Germanic (Anglo-Saxon + Viking) in England and Lowland Scotland. While in Wales, Highland Scotland it's less.

[Creoda]

Welsh still look nothing like Scottish though, regardless of genetics Scots are more frequent in proportions of brunn, nordo brunn, nordo borreby and tronder while in Wales people are usually more atlantid and have significant proportions of paleo atlantids. Eye colour i believe is darker in twice as many Welsh as Scots.

A bit of an exaggeration, I assume you only mean in a British Isles context. Even then you could equally say every nation in the Isles looks different. The numbers don't tell the full genetic story though, the Welsh have been mostly isolated for around 3000 years, whereas Scotland is a more heterogenous medieval mix of Gaels, Britons/Picts, Anglo-Saxons, as well as Norse, Normans and Flemings.