Welsh people: Who overlaps with them?

[Grace O'Malley]

This was LivingDNA. To be exact, 63% of his ancestry was derived from North Wales, followed by 34% from Ireland and 3% from the NW England cluster. LivingDNA is apparently fantastic for those from the British Isles, but really maybe it's more 'Anglocentric'. As you said, not an enormous amount of genetic information is known on the Welsh and they are dwarved in numbers by the English. As well as the fact Wales has a smaller population than Scotland/Ireland there was far less emigration from it than the latter two, and that certainly does not just concern the 'numbers' but the 'proportional' side of things. There is undoubtedly a pitiful sample size of those with considerable Welsh ancestry in the rest of the Anglosphere which does nothing to help our desire for 'information'.

I don't really find LivingDNA super accurate. I was interested in them at first because they said they would be able to break down in Ireland where your genetics are from but they haven't done that. I've seen quite a lot of their results and I'm not impressed.

[Oliver109]

Who said they did? Kent would most likely be in that big red SEE cluster. Kent is in Southeast England so I'm not sure why you made that comment?

Because British phenotypes like brunns, atlantids, gracile meds, atlanto meds and Kelto Saxons are found more in Kent, especially among working class people who will often resemble the more brunet Welsh.

[earthtube]

I have records tracing out a family tree from my great-grandmother back until about 1780, with every individual either born in/around Camborne/Redruth or in/around Falmouth. One individual from Plymouth in Devonshire. I would post my photo for classification but I don't have access to that forum for whatever reason. My other great-grandmother - my grandmother's mother - was from Bath and all the family from her side going back to the 1700s can also be traced Somerset. Both the great-grandfathers were of Palatine German/Dutch descent with some Scots-Irish as well.

[Creoda]

I doubt that, people from Kent etc look closer to the Welsh or even Scots than Belgians or south Dutch.

Southeast English are autosomally closer to the Welsh and Scots than to the Flemish/Belgians*, they are even closer to the Irish than to the Belgians. The Flemish/Belgians are really not that close the English, unlike the South/Central Dutch, I don't where the idea came from that they are. Probably anthrotardism, like most opinions here.

K36

Distance to:	English_Southeast
3.77348645	Dutch
3.95718334	British_Ulster
3.96769454	Dutch_South
4.17077930	Dutch_Central
4.21154366	Scottish
4.60922987	Welsh
4.68628851	Scottish_East
4.90271353	Scottish_Orkney
5.21048942	Scottish_Southwest
5.22690157	Afrikaner
5.45187124	Irish_Leinster
5.56758475	French_Brittany
5.69115981	Scottish_Highlands
5.81023235	French_Normandy
5.81624449	Cornish
5.87275915	German_Northwest
6.05758203	German_Lower_Saxony_South
6.32002373	Irish
6.43365371	Irish_Munster
6.43424432	Flemish
6.53392684	German_Westphalia
6.75065182	Irish_Connacht
7.66919161	French_Hauts-de-France
7.75210939	Dutch_North
8.19587091	Icelandic

K13

Distance to:	English_Southeast
1.70786416	Dutch_South-Holland
2.14711434	Dutch_North-Brabant
2.25262070	Cornish
2.66996255	Welsh_South
2.78896038	Scottish_East
2.97553357	Scottish_North-Highlands
3.02206883	Scottish_Northeast
3.14753872	Dutch_Gelderland
3.21591356	British_Ulster
3.36368845	Scottish_Orkney
3.38504062	German_Westphalia
3.44360276	Scottish_Southwest
3.51138149	German_Lower_Saxony_South
3.59165700	Dutch_North-Holland
3.61755442	Irish_Leinster
3.63657806	Welsh_North
3.79257169	French_Brittany
3.99493429	Scottish_Shetland
4.20309410	Scottish_Gaidhealtachd
4.43269670	Dutch_Overijssel
4.72018008	Flemish
4.87082129	German_Schleswig-Holstein
4.88750448	Irish_Connacht
4.96968812	Irish_Munster
5.07981299	Dutch_Friesland

*by IBD/Fst the English are closer to Belgians (hence the England & NW Europe category on AncestryDNA), as well as Germans, Northern French and Danes than they are to Insular Celts, which goes to show that those genetic measures are less reflective of phenotypical differences.

[Watersater79]

Southeast English are autosomally closer to the Welsh and Scots than to the Flemish/Belgians*, they are even closer to the Irish than to the Belgians. The Flemish/Belgians are really not that close the English, unlike the South/Central Dutch, I don't where the idea came from that they are. Probably anthrotardism, like most opinions here.

K36

Distance to:	English_Southeast
3.77348645	Dutch
3.95718334	British_Ulster
3.96769454	Dutch_South
4.17077930	Dutch_Central
4.21154366	Scottish
4.60922987	Welsh
4.68628851	Scottish_East
4.90271353	Scottish_Orkney
5.21048942	Scottish_Southwest
5.22690157	Afrikaner
5.45187124	Irish_Leinster
5.56758475	French_Brittany
5.69115981	Scottish_Highlands
5.81023235	French_Normandy
5.81624449	Cornish
5.87275915	German_Northwest
6.05758203	German_Lower_Saxony_South
6.32002373	Irish
6.43365371	Irish_Munster
6.43424432	Flemish
6.53392684	German_Westphalia
6.75065182	Irish_Connacht
7.66919161	French_Hauts-de-France
7.75210939	Dutch_North
8.19587091	Icelandic

K13

Distance to:	English_Southeast
1.70786416	Dutch_South-Holland
2.14711434	Dutch_North-Brabant
2.25262070	Cornish
2.66996255	Welsh_South
2.78896038	Scottish_East
2.97553357	Scottish_North-Highlands
3.02206883	Scottish_Northeast
3.14753872	Dutch_Gelderland
3.21591356	British_Ulster
3.36368845	Scottish_Orkney
3.38504062	German_Westphalia
3.44360276	Scottish_Southwest
3.51138149	German_Lower_Saxony_South
3.59165700	Dutch_North-Holland
3.61755442	Irish_Leinster
3.63657806	Welsh_North
3.79257169	French_Brittany
3.99493429	Scottish_Shetland
4.20309410	Scottish_Gaidhealtachd
4.43269670	Dutch_Overijssel
4.72018008	Flemish
4.87082129	German_Schleswig-Holstein
4.88750448	Irish_Connacht
4.96968812	Irish_Munster
5.07981299	Dutch_Friesland

*by IBD/Fst the English are closer to Belgians (hence the England & NW Europe category on AncestryDNA), as well as Germans, Northern French and Danes than they are to Insular Celts, which goes to show that those genetic measures are less reflective of phenotypical differences.

It would appear that the reason the Dutch derive a decent minority of their genome from Keltic sources (in the genuine sense, not in the 'Insular' sense), moreso than the NW Germans, a reason why they are closer to the English than the latter are, and the reason why Dutch and NW Germans can sometimes be distinguished based on facial features.

[Creoda]

It would appear that the reason the Dutch derive a decent minority of their genome from Keltic sources (in the genuine sense, not in the 'Insular' sense), moreso than the NW Germans, a reason why they are closer to the English than the latter are, and the reason why Dutch and NW Germans can sometimes be distinguished based on facial features.

From what I can see it's the pre Celto-Germanic Elp/Hilversum ancestry in the Dutch overall that pulls them West, away from most West Germans. The Flemish, and South Dutch to an extent (especially Limburg) are closer to their German neighbours because of their lower 'Northwestblock', and higher Celtic ancestry.

[Oliver109]

From what I can see it's the pre Celto-Germanic Elp/Hilversum ancestry in the Dutch overall that pulls them West, away from most West Germans. The Flemish, and South Dutch to an extent (especially Limburg) are closer to their German neighbours because of their lower 'Northwestblock', and higher Celtic ancestry.

I would say that the Flemish, south Dutch actually look more like their German neighbours than they do to the northern Dutch.

[Septentrion]

I have records tracing out a family tree from my great-grandmother back until about 1780, with every individual either born in/around Camborne/Redruth or in/around Falmouth. One individual from Plymouth in Devonshire. I would post my photo for classification but I don't have access to that forum for whatever reason. My other great-grandmother - my grandmother's mother - was from Bath and all the family from her side going back to the 1700s can also be traced Somerset. Both the great-grandfathers were of Palatine German/Dutch descent with some Scots-Irish as well.

You are a Yankee, a very mixed breed. You cannot be used as an example since you are little bit of everything.

[Septentrion]

I would say that the Flemish, south Dutch actually look more like their German neighbours than they do to the northern Dutch.

Do you mean genetically or physically ?

[Septentrion]

I have read in anthro forums that they are predominantly Atlanto-Med and are famous for their dark hairs...but in UK, people from Welsh origin didn't look to me much different from English...

The Welsh overlap with other Northern European Whites! On a Northern European level, the Welsh have a slightly higher ratio of dark hair in comparison to the Scandinavians and most Balts (bar Lithuanians) particularly. Even then, most of the darker hair is much more of dark brown tones than the blackish or black. The difference between the Welsh and the English in terms of hair colour is overall gradual, especially from west to east. England is lighter-haired due to more Germanic or Scandinavian influences. Wales remained a Celtic stronghold thus retaining «*older*» races such as more Paleo Atlantids (Ancient race of Northwestern Europe). Besides, the Irish, the Welsh have retained higher ratios of Cromagnids than their other fellow British counterparts. Remember Anglo-Saxons and Norsemen increased the ratio of Nordids within the British population. The Welsh people are slightly less Nordid in race than the English or Scottish and slightly more than the Irish who have very strong CM ties. Darker hair in Wales is principally linked to the CM racial types and not to the Med races. Although on individual basis, one could see a Welsh person that fits Med characteristics, just like you could meet one in Southern England, Ireland, Belgium, the Netherlands, etc… There has been an exaggeration of such presence. Wales is too far-north in Europe to contain a very high proportion of Meds. What’s odd, is that there is high proportion of dark hair on the Fehmarn Island (North - East Germany) the Borreby racial, however nobody ever suspected Fehmarners to be Meds. The Fehmarners are very strongly CM and their ratio of dark hair is twice that of their Northern German counterparts.