Loanwords, lexicon

[member]

I am late to the party, sorry.
http://www.theapricity.com/forum/sho...466#post824466

I did not want my post to dissapear.

This is translation of Lithuanian wiki page about Latvian language. Thought our Latvian friends will find it interesting.
http://lt.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latvi%C...A1koji_leksika


---------------

The realations of both languages regarding the loanwords can be several:

1) The loanword is used by one language f.ex. miestas (polonizm) – latv. pilsēta (own word);
2) Both languages use different loanwords f.ex. liet. gandras (germanizm) – latv. stārķis (germanizm);
3) Both languages use the same loanword f.ex. liet. bažnyčia – latv. baznīca (slavicizm)
4) In one of these languages a loanword has a status of barbarism or a dialectic word f.ex. liet. zvanas „bell“ – latv. zvans "the same".

Due to different historic reasons Latvian has more finicizns and germanicizms, Lithuanian more slavicizms.

Widely known finicizms are: bura „burė“, Jelgava „toks miestas“, kāzas „vestuvės“, laulāt „tuokti“, māja „namas“, puķe „gėlė“, puisis „bernas“, rija „jauja“, selga „atvira jūra“, sēne „grybas“, tērauds „plienas“, vai „ar“, vajag „reikia“.

The biggest part of germanicizms Latvian language got during Livonian era and Tsarist period (landlords in Baltic gubernias were mainly Germans). Latvian language had been cleared from germanicizms in the same way as Lithuanian language from polonizms. Altough it still has quite many of them f.ex: bikses „kelnės“, būvēt „statyti“, dambis „užtvanka“, dienēt „tarnauti“, dubults „dvigubas“, elle „pragaras“, krūze „ąsotis“, kungs „ponas“, ķēde „grandinė“, ķieģelis „plyta“, lukturis „žibintas“, meita ‘mergaitė; duktė’, mērķis „taikinys“, smēķēt „rūkyti“, spēlēt ‘žaisti; groti’, stunda ‘valanda; pamoka’, zāģis „pjūklas“, zēns „vaikinas“, zvērēt „prisiekti“.


Slavicizms in Latvian language hadn't spread gradually either. From early contacts with Krivichi Latvians even had borrowed their ethnonim krievs "Russian". They lgot these loans from about the same time: baznīca „bažnyčia“, blēdis „sukčius“, cilvēks „žmogus“, robeža „siena“, grēks „nuodėmė“, svēts „šventas“, tirgus „turgus“, tulks „vertėjas“ etc.
When Russians had taken over Vidzeme (1721), Latgale (1772) and annexed Curonian duchy (1795), the new wave of slavicizms had reached Latvia f.ex. cena „kaina“, kazarma „kareivinės“, strādāt „dirbti“, zvans „varpas“ etc). The third layer of slavicizms had been layed in Latvian language during Soviet time.

Happens that the meanings of loans in both languages differ, f.ex, liet. kunigas „priest“ : latv. kungs ‘mister, lord; God’, lie. tarm. pagrabas „funeral ceremony“ : latv. pagrabs „basement“, lie. tarm. gromata ‘writting, letter’ : latv. grāmata „book“.

[Waidewut]

About loanwords- it's funny how Latvians have these identical synonyms, where one word is an German/Finnic/Slavic loan while the other is a Baltic word. These can occur in all kind of combinations.

Bura (Finnic)= Zēģele (German)
Māja (Finnic)= Nams (Baltic)
Būvēt (German)= Celt (probably Baltic)

I can't think of any other examples, but there are more.

[member]

Now, on Lithuanian language:

Most loanwords in Lith. language are slavicizms. Slavicizms make up about 1,5 % of standrt Lith. lexicon, while lexicons of dialects especially the Eastern and Southern ones have several thousand loanwords of Slavic origin.

The oldest Slavic loanwords Lith. language reached from old Russian. Later Lithuanians got many words from Polish and Belarussian languages. Modern Lithuanian most Slavicizms get from Russian.

These are among the most usual slavicizms: agurkas (plg. baltr. aгypoк, lenk. agorek, r. oгypeц), blynas (plg. baltr. блiн), bulvė (plg. len. bulwa, bulba), botagas (baltr. 6aтаг), grybas (plg. baltr. грыб), košė (plg. baltr. каша, lenk. kasza), krienas (plg. baltr. xpeн), katilas (plg. ыen. r. котьлъ), knyga (plg. baltr. кнiгa), miestas (plg. baltr. места), pipiras (plg. sen. r. пьпьръ), pyragas (plg. baltr. nipoг), ponas (plg. len. pan, baltr. naн), sakalas (plg. baltr, cokoл, lenk. sokol) ir t.t.

Trough Slavs Lithuanians got not only purely Slavic but also some German, old and Eastern langguages' words. F.ex. asias "donkey" was borrowed before XII c. from Old Russian (ocълъ). Slavs borrowed this word from Germanics (Gothic asilus), the latter got it from Latin (asinus); alyva "olive, oil" (Bel. aлiвa, Pol. oliwa) got into Slavic languages from Latin or Italian; krakmolas "starch, farina" got into Lith. from Polish (Pol. krochmal), Poles got it from German (Ger. Kraftmehl); kaminas "chimney" got into Lith. through Slavic languages (Bel. kамiн, Pol. komin), Western Slavic languages borrowed it from Germans who got it from Latin (caminus "fireplace, furnace").

Besides slavicizms Lith. has quite many germanicizms. Lith. is mostly affected by German. First loanwords from German Lith. reached in XIII—XIV c. Some loanwords may had reached Lithb earlier through Prussian because Prussians had been living next to Goths for a long time and had dorect contacts with them.

Germanicizms compared to slavicizms are used 3 times less in Standart Lithuanian (about 0,5% of all standart Lith. lexicon). Widely used germanicizms in Lith: amatas "trade craft" (plg. vid. vok. žem. am(m)et), budelis (plg. vid. vok. žem. boddel), bulius (plg. vid. vok. žem. bulle), durpė (plg. vok. žem. turf), kalkės "lime, whiting"(plg. vok. Kalk), kunigas (plg. vok. aukšt. kuning), pinigas "money" (plg. vid. vok. žem. pennig), skydas "arnour" (plg. vok. aukšt.scit), vertas "worthy" (plg. vok. wert) etc.

Lith. lexic was influenced by other languages too. Through Latvians we got Baltic ugro-finnic languages words f.ex. asiūkliai "equisetum" (plg. estųosja, suomių hosia), burė "sail" (plg. estų purje, suomių purje), kadugys "caduceus" (plg. estų kadakas, suomių kafoja), laivas "ship" (plg. suomių laiva), šamas "sheatfish" (plg. suomių sampi„eršketas”.

There are several words of Prussian origin f.ex. kriaušė "pear"(plg. pr. crausy), malūnas"mill" (plg. pr. malunis), savaitė "week" (plg. pr. sawayte).

Lithuanians also use loanwords from Latvian langage. there are only several of them in standart Lithuanian, but in Nothern Lithuanian dialects their amount is quite big f.ex. alėtis „bartis” eng. "quarrel" (plg. lat. aleties), cyrulis ,,vieversys” eng. "lark" (plg. lat. cirulis), lūgoti „prašyti” "ask" (plg. lat. lūgt), nikis „užgaida” eng."caprice" (plg. lat. nikis), perti „mušti” eng. "beat" (plg. lat. pert), pylė ,,antis” eng. "duck" (plg. lat. pile), sominis „šiaurės vakarų vėjas” eng. "the wind of North West" (plg. lat. samenis „suomių žemės vėjas” eng. the wind of Finnish land).

SOURCE

[member]

..

[lI]

I am late to the party, sorry.
http://www.theapricity.com/forum/sho...466#post824466

I would appreciate if the next time a post of mine inspires someone to make a thread, I would be informed too - I don't check out this forum regularly and I certainly wouldn't want to miss the party

1) The loanword is used by one language f.ex. miestas (polonizm) – latv. pilsēta (own word);

I already addressed this here:

The commonly listed examples of slavic loanwords in Lithuanian that are missing in Latvian are these - book knyga and city miestas. However, in Latvian the word for "book" is also a Slavic loandword - grāmata (Russian gramata) and though city is pilsēta in Latvian, miestas has been borrowed too, it's just come to mean hamlet rather than city while in Lithuanian pilietis now means citizen.

Due to different historic reasons Latvian has more finicizns and germanicizms, Lithuanian more slavicizms.

Lithuanian language might have more of them but Latvians use the ones they have much more.

Overall, I think this is the key sentence:

4) In one of these languages a loanword has a status of barbarism or a dialectic word f.ex. liet. zvanas „bell“ – latv. zvans "the same".

I am strugling to remember if I have heard someone saying zvanas as much as once in my life. It is NOT a standard language and nobody uses it in Lithuania - just like the vast majority of Slavic loanwords (griekas, bagočius, veselė, pliotkarkė, maikė, trusikai, raskladuška, kurtkė, plavkės, univermagas, čiaininkas, petelnė). In Latvia a fair share of them belong to the standard language

griekas (lenk. grzech) = nuodemė in Lithuanian, grēks in Latvian,
http://translate.google.com/#lt|lv|nuodem%C4%97

bagočius (lenk. bogacz) - turtuolis in Lithuanian, bagāts cilvēks in Latvian (cilvēks is also a Slavic loanword for which Lithies use a baltic word )
http://translate.google.com/#lt|lv|turtuolis



BTW this is a good illustration of which Slavic loanwords in Latvian language have a Baltic equivalent in Lithuanian and which don't (I've put them in bold):

Slavicizms in Latvian language hadn't spread gradually either. From early contacts with Krivichi Latvians even had borrowed their ethnonim krievs "Russian". They lgot these loans from about the same time:
baznīca „bažnyčia“,
blēdis „sukčius“,
cilvēks „žmogus“,
robeža „siena“,
grēks „nuodėmė“,
svēts „šventas“,
tirgus „turgus“,
tulks „vertėjas“ etc.

When Russians had taken over Vidzeme (1721), Latgale (1772) and annexed Curonian duchy (1795), the new wave of slavicizms had reached Latvia f.ex. cena „kaina“,
kazarma „kareivinės“,
strādāt „dirbti“,
zvans „varpas“ etc).

Another illustration where in Lithuanian the word is no longer used but in Latvian it's a standard language:

lie. tarm. pagrabas „funeral ceremony“ : latv. pagrabs „basement“,
lie. tarm. gromata ‘writting, letter’ : latv. grāmata „book“.

So, when the fact that a large part of Slavisms has already been purged from the Standard language is taken into consideration, I think it is fair to say that the number bellow is not informative of the real situation:

Most loanwords in Lith. language are slavicizms. Slavicizms make up about 1,5 %

It reminds me of the situation with English language a bit - it has a lot of Greek words but they're simply not used (the difference in this comparison being that at least those Hellenic words belong to the standard English language, whereas in Lithuanian lots of Slavic loanwords do not, so they will eventually be fully purged out):
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English...y#Word_origins


But look, when all words are taken into consideration, their Germanic lexicon drops even further:

1. A computerised survey of about 80,000 words in the old Shorter Oxford Dictionary was published in Ordered Profusion by Thomas Finkenstaedt and Dieter Wolff that estimated the origin of English words as follows:

• Influences in English vocabulary
• Langue d'oïl, including French and Old Norman: 28.3%
• Latin, including modern scientific and technical Latin: 28.24%
• Germanic languages (including words directly inherited from Old English; does not include Germanic words coming from the Germanic element in French, Latin or other Romance languages): 25%
• Greek: 5.32%
• No etymology given: 4.03%
• Derived from proper names: 3.28%
• All other languages: less than 1%

[member]

Would be interesting to see actual numbers of Latvian language.

P.S. I didn't quite understand what where you people arguing about in that thread.

[Waidewut]

It is NOT a standard language and nobody uses it in Lithuania - just like the vast majority of Slavic loanwords (griekas, bagočius, veselė, pliotkarkė, maikė, trusikai, raskladuška, kurtkė, plavkės, univermagas, čiaininkas, petelnė). In Latvia a fair share of them belong to the standard language

All of these words are used by (some) Latvians in everyday speech, but they are far from being called standard language. These are barbarisms of which Latvian language got infected during Soviet times, not literal Latvian.

BTW this is a good illustration of which Slavic loanwords in Latvian language have a Baltic equivalent in Lithuanian and which don't (I've put them in bold):

I'll take the honour of posting the slavicisms in Lithuanian, with the Latvian equivalent.

LT            LV        
agurkas     gurķis (German Gurke)
blynas       pankūka (Germ. Pfannkuchen)
bulvė        kartupelis (Germ. Kartoffel)
botagas     pātaga
grybas       sēne (Finnic loan, eg. seenin Estonian)
košė          biezputra (Finnic loan, eg puder in Estonian)
krienas      mārrutki (???)
katilas       katls
knyga       grāmata
miestas     pilsēta
pipiras       pipari
pyragas     pīrāgs
ponas        kungs (Germ.)
sakalas     piekūns (???)

As you see Latvians have loanwords at the same places where Lithuanians have them, but it's far more likely to be a Germanic or Finnic loan.

Would be interesting to see actual numbers of Latvian language.

Total amount of loanwords make around 25 to 33% of standard Latvian lexicon.

Savukārt kopējais aizguvumu daudzums latviešu valodas leksikā caurmērā ir aptuveni viena trešā vai viena ceturtā daļa.

http://www.vvk.lv/index.php?sadala=216&id=734

This is logical as Latvians have had far more to do with non-Baltic people than Lithuanians had to do, during history. But this isn't true if talking only about Slavic people.

[member]

4) In one of these languages a loanword has a status of barbarism or a dialectic word f.ex. liet. zvanas „bell“ – latv. zvans "the same".

I am strugling to remember if I have heard someone saying zvanas as much as once in my life. It is NOT a standard language and nobody uses it in Lithuania - just like the vast majority of Slavic loanwords (griekas, bagočius, veselė, pliotkarkė, maikė, trusikai, raskladuška, kurtkė, plavkės, univermagas, čiaininkas, petelnė). In Latvia a fair share of them belong to the standard language

I think it's an exaggeration to say that no one uses them, I'm not talking about particular cases, but Slavic barbarisms are used. Perhaps it's less so with city and/or educated people. Though the fact that they're not used in press and tv also counts.


---
I don't know that much about Latvian language, I'd like to hear what Latvian posters have to say about it.
---

Edit, thank you Waidewut.

So words of Finnic origin (Livonian) are considered as loanwords or not?

[lI]

All of these words are used by (some) Latvians in everyday speech, but they are far from being called standard language. These are barbarisms of which Latvian language got infected during Soviet times, not literal Latvian.

I assume you were talking only about those in bold because, as far as I know grēks and bagāts cilvēks, as well as a Slavic borrowing for weddings kāzas (not vesele, but illustrates my point nonetheless) is standard language, is it not?

Or are velosipēds, blēdis, robeža, tulks, cena, kazarma, strādāt, zvans, sods, zābaks, pagrabs, dārgs,svece, soma, čemodāns not standard?

I'll take the honour of posting the slavicisms in Lithuanian, with the Latvian equivalent.

LT            LV        
agurkas     gurķis (German Gurke)
bulvė        kartupelis (Germ. Kartoffel)

As you see Latvians have loanwords at the same places where Lithuanians have them, but it's far more likely to be a Germanic or Finnic loan.

Thanks for comparison
There's just two issues with it: kartupelis doesn't sound any more like German Kartoffel than Russian kartofel - I'm not claiming anything about its origin but just noting the similarity with Slavic word which, incidentally, Lithuanian bulve lacks: in the article it says that it's a borrowing from Poles but in Polish potato is ziemniak, not bulwa.
Secondly, agurkas and gurķis hardly sound any different, so citing it as a word that sounds Slavic in Lithuanian but not Latvian is ridiculous.

Total amount of loanwords make around 25 to 33% of standard Latvian. lexicon.

That is freakin' much and it makes it hard to believe that the Slavic loanwords could constitute less than 1.5%. Well, do they?

This is logical as Latvians have had far more to do with non-Baltic people than Lithuanians had to do, during history. But this isn't true if talking only about Slavic people.

It is, however, true that you came into contact with them earlier.

http://www.utexas.edu/cola/centers/l...litol-0-X.html

Latvian Origins, Geographic Location, and Background

(...)

Priests travelling with the Vikings from Scandinavia in the 9th and 10th centuries first introduced Christianity to the Baltic tribes populating the western and southern parts of present day Latvia. In the 10th and 11th centuries, Orthodox teachings, via Old Russian, were spread to the inhabitants living in the eastern and central parts. No written legacies of the languages spoken in this area during this period have been found, though archeologists speculate about the possibility that some type of runic writing system borrowed from the Scandinavians may have been used. Borrowed words in use today, which reflect this early Old Russian influence on the Latvian language, include for example baznīca 'church', grāmata 'book', svece 'candle', svēts 'holy', and zvans 'bell'.

The paragraph about Latvia above refers to the same time period when Lithuania was first mentioned in historical sources - for having killed a missionary who tried to spread christianity

So, yeah that explains why most of the Slavic loanwords that we have you do too (while also having some that we don't..) - the legacy of abandoning your savage heathen days earlier

After the formation of Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth, a large number of words were borrowed from Polish. Cf. the following borrowings: rožančius – różaniec (‗paternoster‘), krikštas – chrzest (‗baptism‘), koplyčia – kaplica (‗chapel‘), parapija – parafia (‗parish‘), popiežius – papież (‗pope‘), šventos mišios - msza święta (‗Holy Mass‘), persižegnoti - przeżegnać się (‗to cross‘), ponas - pan (‗sir‘). Most borrowings from Polish are associated with religious practices.

Lithuanian Latvian
rožančius - rožukronis
krikštas - kristības
koplyčia - kapela
šventos mišios - svētā Mise...

From another source:
http://www.forumbiodiversity.com/sho...8&postcount=92
aliejus - eļļa
altorius - altāris
angelas - eņģelis
apaštalas - apustulis
bažnyčia - baznīca
karalius - karalis
krikštas - kristības
rožė - roze
vynas - vīns

[Waidewut]

---
I don't know that much about Latvian language, I'd like to hear what Latvian posters have to say about it.
---

Latvian language is full with unwanted Russian barbarisms, but they are in no way used in any kind of official level.
Some examples- apbižot (apcelt), davaj (aiziet), pufaika (jaka), maika, kurtka (jaka)...

So words of Finnic origin (Livonian) are considered as loanwords or not?

Yes they are considered loanwords and linguist have found 400-500 Finnic
words within Latvian lexicon.

I assume you were talking only about those in bold because, as far as I know grēks and bagāts cilvēks, as well as a Slavic borrowing for weddings kāzas (not vesele, but illustrates my point nonetheless) is standard language, is it not?

Or are velosipēds, blēdis, robeža, tulks, cena, kazarma, strādāt, zvans, sods, zābaks, pagrabs, dārgs,svece, soma, čemodāns not standard?

Yes, linkus, you speak correctly.

There's just two issues with it: kartupelis doesn't sound any more like German Kartoffel than Russian kartofel - I'm not claiming anything about its origin but just noting the similarity with Slavic word which, incidentally, Lithuanian bulve lacks: in the article it says that it's a borrowing from Poles but in Polish potato is ziemniak, not bulwa.
Secondly, agurkas and gurķis hardly sound any different, so citing it as a word that sounds Slavic in Lithuanian but not Latvian is ridiculous.

Bulve doesn't lack anything-
http://translate.google.com/#en|be|potato
Kartupelis and gurkis obviously are German loanwords. It makes sense when you think who were the real masters of agriculture and bosses in manor houses, during the time these vegetables were introduced here. And potatoes were introduced in Russia via Germany, so they use a German loan too.
http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Kartoffel

That is freakin' much and it makes it hard to believe that the Slavic loanwords could constitute less than 1.5%. Well, do they?

I don't believe Lithuanian has so little of them, considering all internationalisms. I can't find the precise number of slavicisms- yes, I looked hard for them in the internet and I'm not hiding info.

It is, however, true that you came into contact with them earlier.

http://www.utexas.edu/cola/centers/l...litol-0-X.html

That doesn't change the fact your relation was far more intense and longer.

So, yeah that explains why most of the Slavic loanwords that we have you do too (while also having some that we don't..) - the legacy of abandoning your savage heathen days earlier

No, you have more slavicisms that we don't have, than vice versa, because we have many loanwords from German in places you have a loanword from Slavic people.

From another source:
http://www.forumbiodiversity.com/sho...8&postcount=92
aliejus - eļļa
altorius - altāris
angelas - eņģelis
apaštalas - apustulis
bažnyčia - baznīca
karalius - karalis
krikštas - kristības
rožė - roze
vynas - vīns

The words in bold could be related to terms in different language groups as much as kartupelis and gurķis, but that doesn't change the fact they are Slavic loanwords