Islam and Protestantism

[Loki]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_and_Protestantism

Protestantism and Islam entered into contact during the 16th century, at a time when Protestant movements in northern Europe coincided with the expansion of the Ottoman Empire in southern Europe. As both were in conflict with the Catholic Holy Roman Empire, numerous exchanges occurred, exploring religious similarities and the possibility of trade and military alliances.

Relations became more conflictual in the early modern and modern periods, although recent attempts have been made at rapprochement. In terms of comparative religion, there also interesting similarities, as well as differences, in both religious approaches.

...

Mutual tolerance

The Sultan of the Ottoman Empire was known for his tolerance of the Christian and Jewish faiths within his dominions, whereas the King of Spain did not tolerate the Protestant faith.

The Ottoman Empire was indeed known at that time for its religious tolerance. Various religious refugees, such as the Huguenots, some Anglicans, Quakers, Anabaptists or even Jesuits or Capuchins were able to find refuge at Istanbul and in the Ottoman Empire, where they were given right of residence and worship. Further, the Ottomans supported the Calvinists in Transylvania and Hungary but also in France. The contemporary French thinker Jean Bodin wrote:

"The great emperor of the Turks does with as great devotion as any prince in the world honour and observe the religion by him received from his ancestors, and yet detests he not the strange religions of others; but on the contrary permits every man to live according to his conscience: yes, and that more is, near unto his palace at Pera, suffers four diverse religions viz. that of the Jews, that of the Christians, that of the Grecians, and that of the Mahometans"

—Jean Bodin.

Martin Luther, in his 1528 pamphlet, On War against the Turk, calls for the Germans to resist the Ottoman invasion of Europe, as the catastrophic Siege of Vienna was lurking, but expressed views of Islam which, compared with his virulent anti-Semitism, are relatively mild.[7] On the one hand, Luther extensively criticized the principles of Islam; on the other hand, he also expressed tolerance for the Islamic faith:

"Let the Turk believe and live as he will, just as one lets the papacy and other false Christians live."

—Excerpt from On war against the Turk, 1529.[8]

However, this statement mentions "Turks", and it is not clear whether the meaning was of "Turks" as a representation of the specific rule of the Ottoman empire, or as a representation of of Islam in general.

Martin Luther's ambivalence also appears in one of his other comments, in which he said that "A smart Turk makes a better ruler than a dumb Christian".

[ficuscarica]

Might be true, still I would prefer to live in a democratic state rather than being a dhimmi in a muslim state...

[The Lawspeaker]

Might be true, still I would prefer to live in a democratic state rather than being a dhimmi in a muslim state...

They weren't dhimmi's for starters. But under the Catholics Protestants were slaughtered. Actually.. because of that Catholics were treated as dhimmi's here for a long, long time.

[ficuscarica]

Well, then the Turks ignored the laws of islam. Considering all history and the current worldwide situation I wouldn´t bet on any islamic country to do that again... What do I gain from recognizing that the Catholics at time were worse? A dominant islam in europe would still mean the end of freedom as we know it.

[The Lawspeaker]

Well, then the Turks ignored the laws of islam. Considering all history and the current worldwide situation I wouldn´t bet on any islamic country to do that again... What do I gain from recognizing that the Catholics at time were worse? A dominant islam in europe would still mean the end of freedom as we know it.

The Turks had well over 500 years to destroy us. Why aren't we dead yet ?

[ficuscarica]

The Turks had well over 500 years to destroy us. Why aren't we dead yet ?

Well, maybe you have heard about what happened before the Gates of Vienna? How did it come that Turks came so far north? And did they stop before Vienna because they liked to stop? Islam allows Christians and Jews to stay alive. As people of the book they can live as second class citizens. Everyone else needs to be killed according to islamic teaching. Bad for tens of millions of European atheists and agnostics. So if you´re happy with being a second class citizen and seing tens of millions of Europeans being forced to convert or killed, then you should go on with defending islam as peaceful. And Europeans should go on with saying thanks for comments as the ones you made about...

[The Lawspeaker]

Well, maybe you have heard about what happened before the Gates of Vienna? How did it come that Turks came so far north? And did they stop before Vienna because they liked to stop? Islam allows Christians and Jews to stay alive. As people of the book they can live as second class citizens. Everyone else needs to be killed according to islamic teaching. Bad for tens of millions of European atheists and agnostics.

Maybe because they weren't very serious about it ? They came to Vienna for strategic reasons not because they wanted to destroy the West or force Islam on all of us. You do realise that they were allied with the Catholic French ? And that that war was part of a much bigger dynastic war/ war against French/Habsburg hegemony in Europe ?

[Loki]

Well, maybe you have heard about what happened before the Gates of Vienna? How did it come that Turks came so far north? And did they stop before Vienna because they liked to stop? Islam allows Christians and Jews to stay alive. As people of the book they can live as second class citizens. Everyone else needs to be killed according to islamic teaching. Bad for tens of millions of European atheists and agnostics. So if you´re happy with being a second class citizen and seing tens of millions of Europeans being forced to convert or killed, then you should go on with defending islam as peaceful. And Europeans should go on with saying thanks for comments as the ones you made about...

Ever heard of the Salzburg "conflict"?

Salzburg conflict

On 31 October 1731, the 214th anniversary of Martin Luther's nailing of his 95 Theses to the Wittenberg School door, Roman Catholic Archbishop Count Leopold Anton von Firmian signed an Edict of Expulsion, the Emigrationspatent, directing all Protestants to recant their non-Catholic beliefs or be banished from the city. (This is not to be confused with many similar edicts of expulsion issued against the Jews in various cities in Europe.)

Landowners were given two days to sell their lands and leave. Cattle, sheep, furniture and land all had to be dumped on the market, and the Salzburgers received little money from the well-to-do Catholic allies of Von Firmian. Von Firmian confiscated much of their land for his own family, and ordered all Protestant books and Bibles burned. Many children aged 12 and under were seized to be raised as Roman Catholics. But those who owned land benefited from one key advantage: the three-month deadline delayed their departure until after the worst of winter.

Tenant farmers, tradesmen, labourers and miners were given only eight days to sell what they could and leave. The first refugees marched north in desperately cold temperatures and snow storms, seeking shelter in the few cities of Germany controlled by Protestant princes. Their children walked or rode on wooden wagons loaded with baggage. As they travelled, the exiles' savings were quickly drained. They were set upon by highwaymen, who seized taxes, tolls and payment for protection by soldiers from robbers.

The story of their plight spread quickly as their columns marched north. Goethe wrote the poem "Hermann and Dorothea", which,though depicting disruptions caused in the aftermath of the French Revolution, was prompted by the story of the Salzburg exiles' march. Protestants and some Catholics were horrified at the cruelty of their expulsion in winter, and the courage they had shown by not renouncing their faith. Slowly at first, the refugees arrived at towns that welcomed them and offered them aid. But there was no place where so many refugees could settle.



Frederick William I welcomes the Salzburg Protestants in Berlin

[ficuscarica]

I don´t get what you want. I already agreed that catholics at times fought protestants much more harshly than muslims did. If you want to have a islamophile masturbation orgy looking at those historic records, then do so.

However, the fundamental teachings of islam, and they were always - at least to a certain degree - applied where islam became dominant, mean discrimination against non-muslims, the loss of religious freedom for those who already are muslims, and death for polytheists/atheists.

What´s going on in here can be compared to people pointing to a national-socialist state, where national-socialist dogmas were not fully applied, and thus wanting to prove that national-socialism is not that bad. Yet it is, it is just not always fully applied.

[The Lawspeaker]

I don´t get what you want. I already agreed that catholics at times fought protestants much more harshly than muslims did. If you want to have a islamophile masturbation orgy looking at those historic records, then do so.
However, the fundamental teachings of islam, and they were always - at least to a certain degree - applied where islam became dominant, mean discrimination against non-muslims, the loss of religious freedom for those who already are muslims, and death for polytheists/atheists.

Do tell me: why isn't all of Eastern Europe Muslim now ?

Let's compare it to Wallonia and parts of France which were hotbets of Protestantism. What happened to the protestants ? What happened to them in Spain ? In France and Wallonia they were expelled or murdered. In Spain usually roasted at the stake. They made every single last one of them very crispy.