Who is closer to Iberians: British/Irish or Germans?

[alnortedelsur]

I think it's a stupid question and I don't see any comparison.

Iberians aren't Anglo-Saxons, Jutes, Normans and Germanic. Norse Vikings settled into the British Isles and Ireland, and Danish Vikings such as King Canute once conquered and ruled over half of England.

There's over 600 words of Norse origin in the English vocabulary from the Viking settlers who named towns and cities across England such as the city of York (once the capital of England) as Jovick (Yor-vik,) (they have a Yorkshire Viking cricket team and a Jorvick Viking cultural learning centre,) whereas Spain has a totally different history and culture to the English. (And the Spanish and Portuguese have a different culture and language to the Scottish, Welsh, and Irish people too.)

Spain had Moorish settlers and muslim rulers over their country for more than 800 years. The Catholic Spaniards hated the Protestant English and our countries had a massive naval battle and wars with each other.

The Spanish language have a lot of Arabic words in their vocabulary like 'El'. The Spanish and Portuguese grammar and the base of their language isn't Germanic and their grammar is closer to the grammar of French and Italians.

The Spanish are also culturally different and have a different climate and different general appearance. Cruel bullfighting and throwing rotten tomatoes at people in an annual Spanish festival certainly isn't my cup of tea. I don't think many of them have freckles or burn in the sun.

I think neither continental Germany nor the British Isles/Ireland are close to Iberians. I think other meditteranean people, such as the southern French and Italians are closer to the Spanish and Portuguese people.

The Latin American nations that were colonised and influenced by the Spanish and Portuguese are also very different to the Anglosphere nations which were colonised by the British and Irish, such as the US, Canada, SA, Australia and New Zealand.

First of all, I agree that Iberians and Irish/British are not particularly close to each other. But stop mentioning Moors when talking about Spaniards, since Moors didn't let any relevant impact into the Iberian gene pool. Iberians and Moors are totally unrelated in genetic/racial terms.

Secondly, Iberians and British are not particularly close to each other, but they are not extremely far from each other either, as if you were talking about distance of British with Somalis, lol. Even into the European context, Iberians are not exactly in "the opposite end" from British. They are less distant from British than Europeans from the other end of the continent, like Bulgarians or Greeks, or even than Italians.

Thirdly, is a known fact that Southern French or Italians are way closer to Iberians than Germans or British (nobody denies that), but the thread is about comparing which of those two populations (British/Irish or Germans) is closer to Iberians than the other. After all, Iberians are European, just like Germans or British, and it makes sense to compare distance of European populations (even if they are not particularly very close to each other). We are not talking about populations that are light years from each other, as if we were comparing the distances of British and Germans to Somalis, lol.

Fourthly, the Arabic words into the Spanish vocabulary are an derisory proportion of all of it, and most of these Arabic words are in disuse. There are even more Amerindian words into the Spanish language than Arabic words. Besides it, the existence of Arabic words is not something exclusive from the Spanish language, but they are also present in many other European languages, like the word Alcohol, that is also present in the English language, just to name only one example.

And finally, other than that, Spain is not the subtropical semi-desertic solarium that you have in mind. Most of inner Spain have winters that can be as cold, or even colder than winters in British Islands, and even the Mediterranean coasts have four seasons, and cool/rainy winters. And Spaniards aren't brown, and there are more of them who have freckles and burn in the sun, than what you think.

[Wanderer]

The Spanish language have a lot of Arabic words in their vocabulary like 'El'. The Spanish and Portuguese grammar and the base of their language isn't Germanic and their grammar is closer to the grammar of French and Italians.

The Spanish "el" is of Latin origin. Both the article and the pronoun él, meaning he/him, actually derive from the same Latin word: ille. You are exaggerating the Arabic content of the Spanish language. It's really not that significant at all.

[Bell Beaker]

British and Irish due to the glacial age influence that Northern Iberians had on the Brits.

Specially Basques and people like Welsh, Cornish and Irish....

Even though Irish have higher Anglo/Scottish component then the Cornish or Welsh.....

[Grace O'Malley]

British and Irish due to the glacial age influence that Northern Iberians had on the Brits.

Specially Basques and people like Welsh, Cornish and Irish....

Even though Irish have higher Anglo/Scottish component then the Cornish or Welsh.....

I think you're talking about ENF and this is in all populations but there is no special connection with the Insular Celts and people like the Basque or Iberians.

If you understand genetics you will understand what this plot shows. You would also have to explain why the Insular Celts are majority R1b-L21 and Iberians are majority R1b-DF27. You might as well claim the Dutch or the Germans are descendants of the Basque or Iberians. Iberians today are not the same as the people that lived there thousands of years ago. Even the Basque are a mixture of ENF and EHG with less ANE admixture.



There has been a lot of population turnover as well. In the case of the Irish they are similar to the Rathlin R1b-L21 genomes and not similar to Ballynahatty. By the time of the early Bronze Age people like Rathlin came to dominate Ireland. Professor Dan Bradley has a lot of ancient genomes so more information will come out on the subject but he has said there was a population turnover. Basically the Irish are primarily descended from these Early Bronze Age populations and have not changed much since. Also see the Hinxton Iron Age samples for reference.

http://www.pnas.org/content/113/2/368.full.pdf

[Autrigón]

This only has the Irish, Germans, Basque and Spanish but the Germans are closer to both Basque and Spanish than the Irish are. Germans are significantly closer to Spanish than the Irish are.



https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/art...9/?tool=pubmed

This table is from Cavalli-Sforza



This is also Cavalli-Sforza

Basque 0
French 93
Spanish 104
Belgian 107
Dutch 118
English 119
Russian 140
Italian 141
Irish 145
Scottish 146

Distance from Irish

Irish 0
Scottish 29
English 30
Danish 68
Belgian 75
Dutch 76
Norwegian 79
Spanish 113
Basque 145

The genetic distance information from Cavalli-Sforza is from The History and Geography of Human Genes. Regarding the Basque they are quite distant to everyone. Their closest populations are the French and Spanish but even these aren't particularly close.

The English and Germans are closer to Spanish while the Irish and Scots are quite a bit more distant. The English are significantly closer to Spanish than the Irish which I'm not sure how to explain as it is quite a bit. English to Spanish is 47 while Irish to Spanish is 113. Forgot to add that Scots to Spanish is 100. German to Spanish is 69. I'm actually quite surprised.

In looking at genetic distance you can't really lump a group like Britain and Ireland together. There are obvious differences especially in regards to other European groups. The Insular Celts are more distant to certain groups than the English are. The English have had more contact with groups like the French and Germans and are closer to some continental European groups. The Germans are obviously closer to many European groups because of their location in Europe.

I don't have genetics knowledge and maybe Im reading the table in a wrong way but I dont understand some numbers...
For example the distance between spanish and portuguese is 48 and the distance between spanish and english is 47, thats no possible!...and spanish are closer to the french than to portuguese??... italians have almost the same distance with spanish and polish?

I knew the basques were far away from everybody...but look at the greeks, icelandic, serbo-croatian and finnish...they are far from everybody!!

[Ibericus]

I don't have genetics knowledge and maybe Im reading the table in a wrong way but I dont understand some numbers...
For example the distance between spanish and portuguese is 48 and the distance between spanish and english is 47, thats no possible!...and spanish are closer to the french than to portuguese??... italians have almost the same distance with spanish and polish?

I knew the basques were far away from everybody...but look at the greeks, icelandic, serbo-croatian and finnish...they are far from everybody!!

Cavalli-Sforza was good for his time, but now it's useless and outdated, with all the new methods we have.

Having said that, West-Germans are closer to us than British/Irish.

[Raikaswinþs]

I think it's a draw.


If I had to guess I would say we share a few ancestral populations with the British dating all the way back to pre-history.Whereas our link with Germanic populations is relatively more recent. The Visigoths which settled and were assimilated into Spanish society in the high middle ages in high numbers were, at least in origin, of North Germanic Origin. although they spent generations migrating before they reached Spain, having spent considerable amounts of time within the Roman empire. By the time they arrive in Spain their lineages probably included a few non-Germanic ones.

The Spanish Marches of the Frankish kingdoms also were partly settled by Franks.

Another imporant influx of Germanic peoples were the Habsburgh repopulations of Andalusia and Granada, which occured between the mid 1500s and the late 1700s. This impact is the most recent of all, but unlike the visigoths, it was highly localized to rural, southern Spain.

In some of the shires/comarcas that were repopulated the ratio was 10/1 in favour of the Flemish settlers, as they generally preferred to settle in the areas that were completely vacated. Nevertheless, through the centuries they ended up mixing and assimilating into Andalusian society.



TL;DR Spaniards and British share one distinct core ancestral/founding population but Spaniards and Germans share historic lineages due to population flows (Visigoths, Franks, Flemish and Austrians)


Also from the XIXth century and specially from the Second half of the XXth century there is a sizeable immigrant community of Germans and Britons in the Spanish mediterranean shores. A decent portion of which have historical been families with children that grew up in Spain as well as singles who intermarried with Spaniards. (contrary to the stereotype , only 2/10 and 3/10 of the British/Germanic immigrants are pensioners)


There is no reason to believe that the impact of Germanics and North European peoples in general to Spain througout history is any less worthy of attention than that of Phoenitian, Greek, North African , Jewish or Syrian/Arabic.


I still think that it is easily obserbable that the majority of Iberians have a distinct, native-Iberian component that forms it's own little cluster within South and Western European populations. BUT I don't think nobody really wants to deny that all of the peoples above (and some more) have had some sort of impact in Spanish populations and genetics througout the millenia

[Autrigón]

I think it's a stupid question and I don't see any comparison.

Iberians aren't Anglo-Saxons, Jutes, Normans and Germanic. Norse Vikings settled into the British Isles and Ireland, and Danish Vikings such as King Canute once conquered and ruled over half of England.

There's over 600 words of Norse origin in the English vocabulary from the Viking settlers who named towns and cities across England such as the city of York (once the capital of England) as Jovick (Yor-vik,) (they have a Yorkshire Viking cricket team and a Jorvick Viking cultural learning centre,) whereas Spain has a totally different history and culture to the English. (And the Spanish and Portuguese have a different culture and language to the Scottish, Welsh, and Irish people too.)

Spain had Moorish settlers and muslim rulers over their country for more than 800 years. The Catholic Spaniards hated the Protestant English and our countries had a massive naval battle and wars with each other.

The Spanish language have a lot of Arabic words in their vocabulary like 'El'. The Spanish and Portuguese grammar and the base of their language isn't Germanic and their grammar is closer to the grammar of French and Italians.

The Spanish are also culturally different and have a different climate and different general appearance. Cruel bullfighting and throwing rotten tomatoes at people in an annual Spanish festival certainly isn't my cup of tea. I don't think many of them have freckles or burn in the sun.

I think neither continental Germany nor the British Isles/Ireland are close to Iberians. I think other meditteranean people, such as the southern French and Italians are closer to the Spanish and Portuguese people.

The Latin American nations that were colonised and influenced by the Spanish and Portuguese are also very different to the Anglosphere nations which were colonised by the British and Irish, such as the US, Canada, SA, Australia and New Zealand.

Thanks Lily I see you love us with all the power of your soul.

The word "el" is a latin article… and italian, portuguese and french language use the same structure.
Most of the arabic words refers to the tools used by the farmers in the middle age, nowadays in daily life those words are almost useless. But yes, there are words in spanish with arabic origin...but in spanish there are words with amerindian origin, with english origin, with germanic origin, with french origin...and in other languages they have words with spanish origin. Any language is closed to the influence of others languages.

About the colonies…yes the system of colonization were different, the Spanish didn’t exterminate the natives in their colonies.

I am some kind of iberian superhero and in summer I can be in Mallorca's beaches under the sun about 5 hours and my skin is never red, the sun never burns me and the scientifics are studying my skin to make the astronauts costumes with the same material.
When I saw my girlfriend's freckles I tried to clean them because I tought that were mud spots

This morning I've been playing with a bull in the street and later I went to the supermarket and I threw a tomato to the face of a retired old woman.

Come on Lily, open the door of your bubble and go out...

[Tietar]

Lily's stupid comment reaches its climax when she says that "el" is Arabic.

I thought that girl was smarter

[Ibericus]

I think it's a stupid question and I don't see any comparison.

Iberians aren't Anglo-Saxons, Jutes, Normans and Germanic. Norse Vikings settled into the British Isles and Ireland, and Danish Vikings such as King Canute once conquered and ruled over half of England.

There's over 600 words of Norse origin in the English vocabulary from the Viking settlers who named towns and cities across England such as the city of York (once the capital of England) as Jovick (Yor-vik,) (they have a Yorkshire Viking cricket team and a Jorvick Viking cultural learning centre,) whereas Spain has a totally different history and culture to the English. (And the Spanish and Portuguese have a different culture and language to the Scottish, Welsh, and Irish people too.)

Spain had Moorish settlers and muslim rulers over their country for more than 800 years. The Catholic Spaniards hated the Protestant English and our countries had a massive naval battle and wars with each other.

The Spanish language have a lot of Arabic words in their vocabulary like 'El'. The Spanish and Portuguese grammar and the base of their language isn't Germanic and their grammar is closer to the grammar of French and Italians.

The Spanish are also culturally different and have a different climate and different general appearance. Cruel bullfighting and throwing rotten tomatoes at people in an annual Spanish festival certainly isn't my cup of tea. I don't think many of them have freckles or burn in the sun.

I think neither continental Germany nor the British Isles/Ireland are close to Iberians. I think other meditteranean people, such as the southern French and Italians are closer to the Spanish and Portuguese people.

The Latin American nations that were colonised and influenced by the Spanish and Portuguese are also very different to the Anglosphere nations which were colonised by the British and Irish, such as the US, Canada, SA, Australia and New Zealand.

What a retarded post. The article "El" is not arabic, is latin, like the italian "Il" or the french "Le". And no, the muslims didn't rule "for more than 800 years", the maximum was in the Kingdom of Granada 780 years, but the rest of Iberia was much lesser than that, after 300 years half of Iberia was already re-conquered.