Is Nagorno-Karabakh Armenian or Azerbaijani land?

[Onur]

Karabakh belongs to Azerbaijan! You are nothing but occupiers! The fact that these territories belonged to Armenia like 2000 years ago doesn't mean that it's yours!

If we were Like you, we would claim following territories:


Almost every Georgian left region when USSR gave this territories to Armenia.

You are completely right. For the Azeris, not even "almost" but all the Azerbaijani Turks has been forcefully expelled out from current Armenia when USSR gave that territory to Armenia. Around ~400.000 Azerbaijani Turks left Armenia after 1920 and 1,3 million more left Karabakh in 1991 and currently not even single Azeri Turk lives in there. They ethnically cleansed these territories by killing and expelling out all the non-Armenian peoples with the help of Russians.

Armenian state`s sole reason of existence is to create some kind of block between Turkey and Azerbaijan and to the rest of Turkic states. Georgia couldn't fulfill this role because they are not hostile to the Turks, so the existence of Armenia was profitable for Moscow and still is, always will be.

[Sultan Suleiman]

The TRUE map of Armenia. It is really unfortunate what Judeo-Turkish terrorists did to your nation. But time is coming when the land will be returned to its rightful owners, because that is God's will.

I doubt that there are enough Armenians left in Caucasus to fill out a fifth of that map.

[d3cimat3d]

I doubt that there are enough Armenians left in Caucasus to fill out a fifth of that map.

You shouldn't be talking, Srebreniak

[Sultan Suleiman]

You shouldn't be talking, Srebreniak

Just pointing out the facts little thing.

[Azalea]

Well said @ Onur

Here is a video of a Dutch Turkiologists speaking about the Karabag conflict and Russia's role in it. He also explains the divide and conquer strategy the Russians used to devide Turkic peoples. Too bad it's in Dutch, but there are Turkish subtitles for the Turkish users.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uGcRSECMvJg

[shshmuk]

always part of armenia? It was Armenia who was always part of someone From 978 till 1118 there was Kingdom of Lori. lori is ours since 1118 and was till 1921 when "reds" gave it to you. It was them who gave you those territories. Because you can't do anything on your own! Azers could easily take Erevan in 2 days if Russia wasn't on their way! Without Russia you are nothing!

Karabakh belongs to Azerbaijan! You are nothing but occupiers! The fact that these territories belonged to Armenia like 2000 years ago doesn't mean that it's yours!

If we were Like you, we would claim following territories:




Almost every Georgian left region when USSR gave this territories to Armenia.




I Don't understand what you are trying to say... In your opinion the territory can be claimed by numbers of churches built there?! And what if I tell you that Armenians stole majority of Georgian churches in Armenia?


You Armenians think that Territories which belonged to "great Armenia" in II-I BC are your historical lands....

You're greatly deluded, my friend. I told you that if you conquered Armenian lands and made part of Georgia once, it doesn't mean those lands are yours. It seems you have difficulty to understand that simple truth. You can't bring facts about Georgian presence in Lori. And lying about all Georgians living that region is not honest at all. Why did they left their land? Can you bring facts that there was persecution or war that made those people leave their homeland? When in 1920, prior to the Soviets establishment there, the Turks entered Lori and killed some 20000 Armenians there, my great grandfather was among them, as my grandmother is Loretsi, but no Georgian is mentioned to be killed in those times in Lori. Why? Because they didn't exist there. I haven't ever heard about Georgians living in that territory. Besides the Armenians, there were Russians and Greeks from Trapezund in Lori, but not Georgians.

The 2nd map which you show says "Georgia at peak of her might 1184-1230." This map shows the territory of Lori conquered by the Georgian King David in 1118-22 from the hands of Seljuks who ruled in Armenia at that time and given to Georgian Orbelis. The territory of Lori, as other territories of Armenia after the fall of Armenian last kingdom Bagratuni in Armenia proper, would always pass to this or that conqueror. Seljuks, Mongols, Georgians, Persians. Because the Georgians were more lucky than the Armenians to have their own kingdom for a longer time. In 1177 Lori was taken from the Orbelis and given to kypchak Khubasar. In 1185 Armenians again ruled there, Sargis Zakarian and his family. In 1236 when Mongols conquered that part, they put it politically in the Gyurjistan vilayet. However, whoever or whatever country conquered Lori, the inhabitants of Lori were always Armenians. After the Zakarians, the Arghutyan family was the ruler in Lori until the end of the 19th century. In 1555 Lori passed to Sefian Iran. Then again in 1762 your king Herakl conquered it. Then in 1801 Lori was taken by the Russians and became part of the Russian Empire.

As you can see, this Armenian territory had numerous conquerors but as it is not a Seljuk land, because once Seljuks conquered it, it is not a Mongolian land, because Mongols too conquered it, it is not a Persian land or Russian, because these too conquered Lori, so also it is not a Georgian land, only because you would conquer it. So show thousands of maps of those years when Georgia conquered Lori at different times, this will not make Lori Georgian, as it has always been an Armenian land, inhabited with Armenians.

When you bring the map of Georgia in 1920 showing Lori as part of Georgia, why don't you also show an earlier map or tell the story of how it happened that such a map could be created. I'll tell you the story. In December 1918 the Entente instigated war between the Republic of Armenia and Republic of Georgia for Lori. As a result, the Neutral Zone of Lori was created under the rule of an English general. You can see that neutral region in this map where Lori is a disputed land between two republics. But in the autumn of 1920 the Georgians attacked Lori and conquered it. However, after several months, on February 11-12 of the year 1921, the Soviet Army took it back and gave to the Armenians. So the first map that you showed depicts Georgia of that short period, just several months. So are you honest when you show that map as a proof of Lori being a Georgian land?

I told you. Go to Lori and see the proofs of its being an Armenian land yourself. Just go and see the tombs of Kyurikyan, Zakarian and other Armenian princes or rulers there even from those times when Lori was conquered by the Georgians. You'll see Armenian inscriptions there, not Georgian. If you find the tombs of your Georgian ancestors or anything Georgian there, tell me.

Pls, bring facts to prove what you have written, to prove that Lori is a Georgian land. Name some famous Georgians from that region or at least not famous Georgians whom you know that have Lori origin. I named some famous ancient Armenians from Lori, can add also Anania of Sanahin (12th century), Ghukas Loretsi (15th-16th centuries), Hovhannes Tumanyan, the Armenian famous poet. My ancestors are partly from Lori and lived there for centuries, are your ancestors or of any of your Georgian friends from Lori? What historic or genetic memory do you have from Lori? You only have maps showing how brave your some ancestors were to fight and conquer others' lands.

Tell me, in which towns or villages of the Lori region Georgians lived?

Your maps prove nothing, as such maps could bring other nations too who once conquered Lori.

And when you again lie about Armenians stealing your churches in Armenia, you can't bring facts to prove them. You can talk only about Armenian Chalcedonic churches like Akhtala in which in very ancient times both Armenians and Georgians lived. But Armenians didn't steal anything from anyone and we don't hide the fact that those churches built by the Armenians first as churches of the Armenian non-chalcedonic Church became Chalcedonic for some time when Georgia was ruling in Armenian regions and thus became subject to the Georgian Church. However, they eventually again passed to the Armenian Church. So, who stole your churches? No one. These were Armenian churches, passed for some time to the Chalcedonic Armenians that were subjects of the Georgian Church, and then again were given to their right owner, the Armenian Church.

[shshmuk]

You are completely right. For the Azeris, not even "almost" but all the Azerbaijani Turks has been forcefully expelled out from current Armenia when USSR gave that territory to Armenia. Around ~400.000 Azerbaijani Turks left Armenia after 1920 and 1,3 million more left Karabakh in 1991 and currently not even single Azeri Turk lives in there. They ethnically cleansed these territories by killing and expelling out all the non-Armenian peoples with the help of Russians..

The same I could tell about the Armenians who left Azerbayjan after the pogroms in Baku and Sumgayit. Where are the Armenians that lived in Azerbayjan? And the war of Karabakh was started by you, the Azeri Turks. You count your victims, we'll count ours. Just you were not lucky at this time to win the battle. This happens. It were Armenians who would previously be conquered, now you. What's the problem? War is a war and has its rules. Next time don't massacre innocent people and don't start a war if you're afraid to lose.

[Onur]

The same I could tell about the Armenians who left Azerbayjan after the pogroms in Baku and Sumgayit. Where are the Armenians that lived in Azerbayjan?

And the war of Karabakh was started by you, the Azeri Turks.

Pogroms? You complain about pogroms in Azerbaijan after you expelled out millions of Azeris, brutally murder 10.000s of them and then occupy their country? I think Azerbaijanis were quite naive and forgiving during the pogroms, those Armenians in Baku were quite lucky because they could have been killed.

Azeri turks started war in Karabakh? Are you mad? Karabakh is an Azeri terriorty, so wtf you are talking about? Why would they start a war inside their own country?

It looks like we have another delusional Armenian again. They are like programmed robots, all of them repeating same false arguments. Where is Bozkurt_Karabash when we need him?

[The Lawspeaker]

[YOUTUBE]uGcRSECMvJg[/YOUTUBE]

(bedankt, Anshina).

It's time for an exchange of land then: the former Western part of Armenia back to Armenia and Nagorno-Karabakh to Azerbaijan and a reunification between North and South. So it would need to be an exchange of land between Armenia, Azerbaijan, Turkey and Iran. Furthermore: if Azerbaijan feels like it they should be able to join Turkey.

[shshmuk]

Pogroms? You complain about pogroms in Azerbaijan after you expelled out millions of Azeris, brutally murder 10.000s of them and then occupy their country? I think Azerbaijanis were quite naive and forgiving during the pogroms, those Armenians in Baku were quite lucky because they could have been killed.

Oh my naive friend, you have problems with time and chronology, or generally, logic.
Because first the pogroms and assassination of Armenians of Azerbayjan occurred, and only then the war and as a result the expulsion of Azeri Turks from Armenia.

"Millions of Azeris, occupy their country". Bla bla. Tell those tales to your children... Nagorno-Karabakh, more correctly, Artsakh, has always been an Armenian land, just taken by Stalin (like the other region of Armenia, Nakhijevan) and given to the "Caucasian Tartars' (as those Azeri Turks were called at that time) as a cake which the "Azeris" were unable to digest and now it is you that complain, not me, for the pain in your greedy Turkish stomach.