would it be beneficial for albanians to leave islam

[Kanuni]

I have no problems with Albanians. I just find your desperate attempts to connect yourself with antiquity as stupid and laughable.

Actually your statements about Central Asian Turks are plain dumb .

While ours is based on actual facts.

[Hurrem sultana]

I agree with most of your previous points about Islam helping preserve Albanian culture, and hindering slavic and Greek assimilation. However our religion is actually a major obsticle contributor to our E.U accession. Lets take Turkey for instance they have a higher GDP then Bulgaria, and Romania, Turkey has no minority issues, their environment is well off, decently well developed infastructure, quality of life is decently high, yet despite all this they are'nt in the E.U, while Macedonia could've entered the e.u since 2005 when they
1)clearly have minority issues
2)Corruption is astoundingly high
3)Montearly speaking they're not far off from Albania
4)quality of life is lower then Azerbaijan (according to wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...elopment_Index)
(clearly religion plays a big role here)
-I am not attempting to offend any muslim Albanians: So Just to make it clear, i am not anti-islam or pro catholic or christian etc (im an atheist)

EU is today an "atheistic institution" so i dont see how it would stop albanians,or bosnians in any way?

If Turkey was a country of 5-10 million people,they would be in EU believe me.EU just cant take a huge and strong country like Turkey,it has nothing to do with religion

[Queen B]

But that wasn't the case with Greece where millions of Albanians lived under harsh assimilation policies and simply speaking or being an Albanian considered as an inferiority. Greece is also working for assimilating the rest of orthodox Albanians and Vlachs in mainland Albania today. They are funding their neo-hellenic supporters in Albania and proceeding with their policies by using political parties for the so-called Greek minority in Epirus.

Yet another post bitching about Greeks.
From the one that is ''sick'' with Greeks talking about... Turkey

[safinator]

Albania is an evil muslim country like Taliban Afghanistan where women are dressed with burqas and get shot if they show their legs, and music is outlawed, men have beards and pray all the time, nobody drinks alcohol.

See video for proof:
[YOUTUBE]YwE4qF6uhwE[/YOUTUBE]

I was there, strange i didn't appear

[Tonsor]

So most Albanians just call themselves Muslims and then do nothing to express or cultivate their Islamic faith? and Albanian society does not reflect any Islamic Cultural principles?

- Correct.

Then why do so many of you guys continue calling yourself Muslim?

- Its no more big deal than the countless of Europeans that identify as "Christians" even though they are not real believers, but still they celebrate religious holidays as a chance for people to get together. Celebrating Ramadan and attending the Mosque then is not more radical than people celebrating Christmas and attending church that time of the year. Religion isn't a big deal that most are willing going the step changing religion like that.

What's the point in changing religion if you don't really care about religion at all? I wouldn't mind Albanians becoming Christians, but if we are to change religion it should not be because outsiders tell us to. We have been through that plenty now. But its not really needed, I think things work fine as they do.

Calling yourself a Muslim and practicing a secular lifestyle is like calling yourself a Vegetarian while gorging on a extra rare New York Strip Steak

- Seems almost like you are disappointed Albanian Muslims are not religious enough Its Islam the Balkan way, get over it

[Panopticon]

Thanks for condescending to me, but my point was that its hypocritical to call yourself one thing and act like another. It's inexcusable when people of any religion do it, by the way.

I apologize if you feel insulted, but it still stands: you do not understand that there is a difference in being a nominal Muslim and a Muslim by faith.

You have it confused: a nominal Muslim is not a believer and does not think of himself as a person of Muslim faith, he is only a Muslim in the sense that he has Muslim heritage. Therefore, it is not hypocritical, because we do not claim to be Muslims in the sense that we are believers and follow the rules, just that we have Muslim heritage.

Are you implying that its good not to care about religion? Now that's quite a stretch.

Religion is outdated. We should rely on logic and science rather than faith and belief. Shunning religion away is beneficial, not detrimental.

Religion is interesting as an intellectual topic, but further than that, it has little-to-no use, especially for mentally stronger individuals and groups.

And like I said, there is something fundamentally wrong and dishonest about calling yourself one thing and acting like another.

As I have already said: we are, for the most part, apathic towards religion; we do not care about it. Yet, we are Muslims in the sense of having Muslim heritage, in the same way most Norwegians f.e. are Christians. It is not dishonest to identify as being of Muslim heritage but not of Muslim faith.

However, if that is dishonest, then why should we become Christians, and only in the nominal sense? (Although I do wonder, do you want us to become Christians in a nominal sense of the word or do you want us to become actual believers?) By your definition, that would be dishonest.

If Albanians are really secular, moderate, humanist, etc. then they owe it to themselves to stop identifying as Muslims.

That's called intellectual honesty

Not really. If we are secular non-believers, i.e. we do not care for religion as I have said earlier, then to convert and to stop identifying with our heritage would show the opposite: we would care for religion or else we would not have taken such measures.

His family was forced to convert to Islam. His brothers, who refused, were poisoned. Kastrioti grew up with a burning hatred for all things Islamic.

They were not really forced, however, they would not have maintained their possesions if they did not convert. With the previous convertions Gjon Kastrioti had done (Catholicism to Orthodoxy) that can just be considered the story of a feudal lord doing what he can to keep his territory. One of his brothers lived as an Orthodox monk, he was not killed for his faith. You will have to prove that with veritable evidence.

You are turning this into a mythical story, where Kastrioti fought against the Turks for the benefit of Europe and Christianity. He did now fight for either Europe or Christianity, he fought for the right to be a feudal lord with land possessions and power.

I cannot tell you whether he hated Islam or not, I would have nothing to back that up; neither do you. However, as an Ottoman administrator and military commander, he did fight against infidels and he did of course work for the Ottomans as a Muslim.

As we know beforehand, his family had often changed religion to fit with their political alliances and such; it is just reasonable to think Skanderbegs conversion to Catholicism was for the same reason: politics. That he converted to Catholicism in particular is telling, he was an Orthodox at birth, his father had converted to Orthodoxy before his birth and his mother came from an Orthodox family. However, there was no real resistance coming from Orthodox countries, actually the Turks had taken the capital of the Orthodox world and made it its own, hence Orthodoxy had been subdued and there was not one single Orthodox power; no powerful Orthodox allies to gain. There was the Catholic world: Venetia, Naples and Rome became his allies, and there were more powerful Catholic countries to become allies with if that was necessary. Furthermore, his first alliance was with a Catholic who also resisted the Turks: John Hunyiadi. His conversion to Christianity can therefore be seen as a way to get strong allies that would help him keep power and territory; he was a man playing what is just logical politics. Unfortunately, his allies thought they could rely on Skanderbeg to defeat just about everything the Turks sent with his great ability to use what he had and defeat enemies much greater than himself.

You seem very assured though, so feel free to use any reliable sources you can find.

I agree that Skanderbeg was treated unfairly by Pope Paul II, but even after his disagreement with the papacy he continued to fight against the Saracens to his last breath.

He had other allies than Rome, and he could not have done anything else anyway. Besides, Rome had never given any help, so it did not mean much. Actually, Skanderbeg was quite self-reliant most of the time, and he gave much more to his allies than they gave to him, even though he was the one on the frontline most of the time. Naples was the only ally that Skanderbeg was grateful to, and after his death, Naples took his family under their protection.

He was born resisting Islam and he died resisting Islam, a true European Hero.

Not really. You are speaking of the myth of Skanderbeg. What I am speaking of has been written in a lot of books. You only know the Skanderbeg written of in Western books which made him a sort of action hero in those times.

Your attempts to "secularize" Skanderbeg and muddy his legacy as a Christian, European Crusader are, quite frankly, beneath contempt.

Your attempts to give me any lecture on the basis of your ignorant opinion is even more so. If you see anything I do as beneath contempt, I do not care as I do not respect you enough to care for your opinions on me and my substantiated opinion.

Leaving Islam would do much more than change Albania's outward appearance, as I explained above.

It would not. I have already explained that it is nothing but a cosmetic change that only changes the outside but not the inside. I believe we have put ourselves above religion to the extent that these things do not matter.

And by the way, I DID make a number of posts about Albania which are unrelated to religion.

Yes. Although most of them still are about our religion, and those posts are quite unfavourable.

-I talked about the economy of Kosovo and what it can do to stand on its own two feet rather than depend on NATO handouts.

Kosova is standing on its feet, there has been economic growth every year, even during the recession; the debt is already low, but still it is sinking. There are problems: unemployement, inflation, etc., but they can be fixed and they are not linked to what you are speaking of. And afaik, we do not get NATO handouts, at least not to the extent of handouts holding a country on its feet.

-I supported the Albanians who seek justice for all of their countrymen who were massacred by the Serbs.

That is commendable.

-I always defend Albanians when others accuse them of looking like Turks or North Africans

That is fine as well, although I do not think it is necessary due to the ridulousness of it.

There are many people on this forum who live in the Balkans that share my opinion about the religion of Albania.

There are, but that they are from the Balkans does not mean they know a lot about Albania. Most Yugoslavs have a very warped view on Albanians and are completely ignorant on anything that has to do with Albanians. Something Serbian writer Vladimir Arsenijevic writes on in his article "Our Negroes, Our Enemies".

I've been to Croatia (which is only two countries above Albania) and the people there seemed to care quite a bit for religion. They weren't fanatics or zealots, but you could tell that they are Catholics from their mentality and culture.

They are different things. Yugoslav ethnic identities rely on religion to a very large extent: "you are a Croat if you are Catholic, a Serb if Orthodox, a Bosniak if Muslim". Our ethnic identity does not rely on religion.

I can't imagine that the situation in Albania is different, considering that the two countries are so close.

As I explain above, their ethnic identity relies on religion to a large extent, our does not. The recent tensions (wars, aftermath, etc.) probably has helped strengthened the role of religion in ex-Yu nations. Other than that, you also have the Communist rule f.e.

[~Nik~]

Albania is an evil muslim country like Taliban Afghanistan where women are dressed with burqas and get shot if they show their legs, and music is outlawed, men have beards and pray all the time, nobody drinks alcohol.

See video for proof:
[YOUTUBE]YwE4qF6uhwE[/YOUTUBE]

I don't know what you are trying to prove with all these images of Albanians with makeup of upper or middle class attending nightclubs. Why not just show what looks like the majority of Shqiptars, those who are poorer and less educated than you.

You claim to be disinterested by the religion, but then who are these people :






The image of Albania as you don't want to show ?

And suppose they do it to be well seen by Islamists who fund mosques all over Europe, and I can be sure that your people is anything but sincerely religious, see this for proof. An people of mercenaries and of a mercenary morality, you were well known under the Ottomans, your mercenaries were known throughout the empire for their participation as a whole people. And don't try to blind these strangers with your so-called honor codes and other tribal codes that you know perfectly well that applies only to those of your kind.

But that still doesn't explain the religious fervor of these people :










What are these Islamic sects that we see in Albania ? Do they come from the distant Turkey ? Maybe an remnant of your ottoman beliefs.

This is what explains your famous Albanianism, an neo-ottomanism in reality. You work for who has the most to offer, that's your whole history. You are formed of peoples around mixed with the race of the original Shqiptars who are come from the distant Caucasus. Forget your illyrian fables, you aren't even the "I" of Illyrians.

[Sokol]

I don't know what you are trying to prove with all these images of Albanians with makeup of upper or middle class attending nightclubs. Why not just show what looks like the majority of Shqiptars, those who are poorer and less educated than you.

You claim to be disinterested by the religion, but then who are these people :






The image of Albania as you don't want to show ?

And suppose they do it to be well seen by Islamists who fund mosques all over Europe, and I can be sure that your people is anything but sincerely religious, see this for proof. An people of mercenaries and of a mercenary morality, you were well known under the Ottomans, your mercenaries were known throughout the empire for their participation as a whole people. And don't try to blind these strangers with your so-called honor codes and other tribal codes that you know perfectly well that applies only to those of your kind.

But that still doesn't explain the religious fervor of these people :










What are these Islamic sects that we see in Albania ? Do they come from the distant Turkey ? Maybe an remnant of your ottoman beliefs.

This is what explains your famous Albanianism, an neo-ottomanism in reality. You work for who has the most to offer, that's your whole history. You are formed of peoples around mixed with the race of the original Shqiptars who are come from the distant Caucasus. Forget your illyrian fables, you aren't even the "I" of Illyrians.

Shiptars like to pretend they're European, whilst still practising Islam.

[Drawing-live]

^
^I pity desperate trolls of this level. I grew up in albania and was there last year...
You guys are a sad case

[Sokol]

^
^I pity desperate trolls of this level. I grew up in albania and was there last year...
You guys are a sad case

albania is 70-80% muslim. are you denying this?