CAT| 51% Catalans for independence

[Ouistreham]

If the continuation of Catalonia within the EU is guaranteed,

Yes to independence: 61,9%
No to independence: 31,4%

If the continuation is not guaranteed,

No to independence: 46,8%
Yes to independence: 44,7%

Catalans, specially the old ones, seem to be extremely Europeanist.

In other words, they are ready to get independant if the German, French, British, Dutch etc. taxpayers are going to pay the bill.


All of a sudden I feel myself much less enthusiastic about Catalan independance.

french have killed Occitan language

This idiotic legend will never die...

No one ever forced the Southern French to abandon their dialects.

[Jerreiche]

Before Catalonia thinks on independence or referendums, first she must think on how to make it legal. Within the current constitution it is impossible and the government can't allow any referendum on secession to take place under the current circumstances.

So, first things first: a reform of the Spanish constitution is due. Not that I personally disregard the fact that a good chunk of Catalans are pro-independence, but when we start the process of reform of the constitution, the reform that allows regions to make referendums of independence will be only one of the things to be discussed upon, and , given the current circumstances, will not be the most important thing that concerns the citizens of the Kingdom. Not even its actual constitution as a monarchy: Things as the very own electoral system, the shape and size of the public administration, and the reorganization of the country's damaged economy and welfare system will need to be examined first alon with the chapters that regards the citizens human rights and how the administration is responsible for its maintenance


Also, instead of using the "sentiments" and the discontent of the crowds with the current economical situation to feed separatism , make of himself a pseudo historical figure and hide his nefarious administration, (or at least on top of that) President Mas could actually explain to its people what is the "real" plan for the countries' independence. You know, what actually "independence" means. In this case the lose of many important "sedes empresariales", the need to set up their own military, their own external representation, their own currency(at least temporarily, while they are in the queue to join the EU as a new state, in the fashion of Bosnia or Montenegro) , their own constitution, passport, resolve the status of more than half of their population being ethnically partly or fully Spanish from other regions, when not directly relocated (will they become suddenly foreigners? what will be their status? the same as that of the chinese or pakistani citizens?) Not to mention the hundreds of thousands of Catalans living in other comunidades

This whole Catalonian independence issue has a hideous stench. People that have been constructing and developing this over the last couple of decades from the Generalitat are actually as suspicious, corrupt, nepotic as their counterparts in Valencia, Madrid or Sevilla. No wonder since they are all Spanish after all :S

[Lábaru]

In a recent survey, the majority of Catalans agree with Minister Wert, that schools should teach children to feel Spanish and Catalan, both.



http://www.vozbcn.com/2012/10/22/131...lizadora-wert/

Una encuesta realizada en Cataluña apunta un apoyo mayoritario a la propuesta españolizadora de Wert

Una semana después de que el ministro de Educación, Cultura y Deporte defendiese la necesidad de “españolizar a los alumnos catalanes” con el objetivo de que “se sientan tan orgullosos de ser españoles como de ser catalanes”, un sondeo indica que su propuesta es apoyada de forma mayoritaria en Cataluña.

http://politica.elpais.com/politica/...96_871692.html

[Comte Arnau]

Aranes is nearly extincted mainly because french have killed Occitan language, and aranese are actually isolated. Aranese people actually speak mainly castillian, and they are clearly prospanish.

Aranese is the only Occitan dialect which is actually alive and kicking, used in schools and administration, spoken by the ethnic Aranese and official in both the Aran Valley and the whole of Catalonia, where it is the third official language. Yes, they are isolated and few, but they would never be better in Spain or France than in an independent Catalonia, where their singularity is respected and officialized. The only way they might be better is being a microstate, but I've never heard of Aranese defending such thing. Those who say all that shit are usually Spaniards living in the Valley, rather than Aran locals themselves.

In my opinion catalonian should put more atention in Andorra than to Aran Valley. It is stupid that being Catalan oficial language, only 30% speak it, and people can be educated mainly in Castilian or french, without being these languages oficial. Andorra should be Catalonia and not Aran Valley.

Andorra was independent even in the times of the Crown, and they wouldn't like to lose their status. Yet I agree that their language policies should be more aggressive (they're realizing now), and that their Catalan/Spanish/French tripartite school system is absurd.

In other words, they are ready to get independant if the German, French, British, Dutch etc. taxpayers are going to pay the bill.


All of a sudden I feel myself much less enthusiastic about Catalan independance.

That's a very Northern-like way of thinking. If someone had always told you that you should be Europeanist, that the European Union is where you belong and that out of it there's only void and chaos, it's natural that many people don't like the idea. PC Catalan nationalism has always been pro-European, pro-melting pot and all those things.

This idiotic legend will never die...

No one ever forced the Southern French to abandon their dialects.

I don't know about the history of Occitan, but regarding Catalan in France, I can indeed post dozens of rules, bills and actions banning Catalan since the very moment Northern Catalonia was given to France.

Before Catalonia thinks on independence or referendums, first she must think on how to make it legal. Within the current constitution it is impossible and the government can't allow any referendum on secession to take place under the current circumstances.

So, first things first: a reform of the Spanish constitution is due. Not that I personally disregard the fact that a good chunk of Catalans are pro-independence, but when we start the process of reform of the constitution, the reform that allows regions to make referendums of independence will be only one of the things to be discussed upon, and , given the current circumstances, will not be the most important thing that concerns the citizens of the Kingdom.

Aha. That is a dead end. Why? Because a Spaniard will never be worried by what a Catalan is worried. So there is no possible dialogue, as in Scotland/England. Catalans may be like the Scottish, but Castilians are not like the English.

I'd also love things to be carried out by law. But law can't be used to silence the voice of a people in democracy. What is more: even if a reform of the Holy Constitution took place, Spaniards would still believe themselves to have the right to vote in a referendum concerning Catalonia. I guess it must be Philip V's right of conquest they are thinking about.

When the wife wants to get divorced, no paper shown by the husband will prohibit it.

In this case the lose of many important "sedes empresariales",

Speculation.

the need to set up their own military, their own external representation, their own currency(at least temporarily, while they are in the queue to join the EU as a new state, in the fashion of Bosnia or Montenegro) , their own constitution, passport,

Of course. That's what being an independent country is about.

resolve the status of more than half of their population being ethnically partly or fully Spanish from other regions, when not directly relocated (will they become suddenly foreigners? what will be their status? the same as that of the chinese or pakistani citizens?)

Catalonians. That is what they are now, that is what they would be. The language they speak at home is totally irrelevant.

In a recent survey, the majority of Catalans agree with Minister Wert, that schools should teach children to feel Spanish and Catalan, both.

Lol. The question couldn't be more demagogical.

What does "teaching to feel Spanish" means? We'll have to appreciate the art of bullfighting and love flamenco?

By the way, weren't you the one who always criticized indoctrination? So when it is Catalan, it is indoctrination, and when it is Spanish, it is not? How does it work exactly?

[Lábaru]

Lol. The question couldn't be more demagogical.

What does "teaching to feel Spanish" means? We'll have to appreciate the art of bullfighting and love flamenco?

By the way, weren't you the one who always criticized indoctrination? So when it is Catalan, it is indoctrination, and when it is Spanish, it is not? How does it work exactly?

Demagogical? teaching to feel Spanish and catalan, accepts reality, most Catalans agree that with the idea of their children should learn to feel Spanish and Catalan.

we must respect the majority opinion, your minority views can not be imposed

[perikolez]

Aranese is the only Occitan dialect which is actually alive and kicking, used in schools and administration, spoken by the ethnic Aranese and official in both the Aran Valley and the whole of Catalonia, where it is the third official language. Yes, they are isolated and few, but they would never be better in Spain or France than in an independent Catalonia, where their singularity is respected and officialized. The only way they might be better is being a microstate, but I've never heard of Aranese defending such thing. Those who say all that shit are usually Spaniards living in the Valley, rather than Aran locals themselves.



Andorra was independent even in the times of the Crown, and they wouldn't like to lose their status. Yet I agree that their language policies should be more aggressive (they're realizing now), and that their Catalan/Spanish/French tripartite school system is absurd.



That's a very Northern-like way of thinking. If someone had always told you that you should be Europeanist, that the European Union is where you belong and that out of it there's only void and chaos, it's natural that many people don't like the idea. PC Catalan nationalism has always been pro-European, pro-melting pot and all those things.

How do you know if Aran will be better in Catalonia or in Spain?. In both cases Aran would be a minority region inside of a bigger state. Aranese people speak better castilian language than catalan, then it is more logical being Spain than Catalonia.

About Andorra, I think that if Catalonia is independent, Andorra should be Catalonia. History isnt forever. Before being independent, it is probably that Andorra were part of another crown during ages . Andorra is a joke.

Finally , I found stupid when Artur Mas says that Cataluña will be independent being part of Europe inmediatly. He is lying. If Cataluña get the independence, they will be a new state, and they will have to wait like Croacia , Serbia, ,etc, a long time to be part of European Union.

[Comte Arnau]

Demagogical? teaching to feel Spanish and catalan, accepts reality, most Catalans agree that with the idea of their children should learn to feel Spanish and Catalan.

we must respect the majority opinion, your minority views can not be imposed

Yes, demagogical, because questions should be simple and clear, not in ways open to several interpretations.

Schools shouldn't tell anybody to feel anything. Yeah, I know that you believe that Catalan schools are Taliban centers of indoctrination and all that blah blah blah you buy from Mesetarian media, but the truth is a very different one, and I know because unlike you, I have gone to school in Catalonia.

As I said, funny that you criticized indoctrination but you don't mind it when it is used to Spanishize Catalans. The same old song.

[perikolez]

Demagogical? teaching to feel Spanish and catalan, accepts reality, most Catalans agree that with the idea of their children should learn to feel Spanish and Catalan.

we must respect the majority opinion, your minority views can not be imposed

most catalans?. I think that CIU and ERC have majority of the vote. This is more real than a subjetive opinion poll. Education shouldnt teach being spanish or catalan. Education should be objetive.

Which is Wert´s spanish education?. Flamencos?, bullfghting?, gypsies?. How can you adoctrinate children to feel spaniard or catalan?.

[Comte Arnau]

How do you know if Aran will be better in Catalonia or in Spain?

Because as a microregion of Spain, the Aranese language/culture would be dead in a couple of generations.

Aranese people speak better castilian language than catalan, then it is more logical being Spain than Catalonia.

Lol. Their language is Gascon, not Spanish or Catalan.

And I don't know which Aranese you're talking about. I've worked and lived there, and all the people I met spoke the three languages perfectly, some of them even had great knowledge of French.

About Andorra, I think that if Catalonia is independent, Andorra should be Catalonia. History isnt forever.

I also consider Andorra just a few Catalan valleys that happen to be independent. But whatever we two think is irrelevant. Unless joining Catalonia means some great advantage, they'll prefer to be independent forever. Just like Liechtenstein or San Marino.

Before being independent, it is probably that Andorra were part of another crown during ages . Andorra is a joke.

It was basically born out of a dispute between two territories, Urgell and Foix. That's why the two co-princes of Andorra are still the Bishop of Urgell and the Count of Foix first, the President of France after Foix became French.

Finally , I found stupid when Artur Mas says that Cataluña will be independent being part of Europe inmediatly. He is lying. If Cataluña get the independence, they will be a new state, and they will have to wait like Croacia , Serbia, ,etc, a long time to be part of European Union.

There is no precedent, so none of us will know what will really happen, no matter how categorically we say it.

[Lábaru]

You guys must be democratic and accept reality.