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Thread: Nordicism

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    Post Nordicism vs Pan-Aryanism, and Preservationism

    Nordicism vs Pan-Aryanism, and Preservationism


    There's no question that Indo-European self-interest is gaining momentum. Thanks to multiculturalism, Indo-Europeans (Caucasians, "whites," Euripids) now realize they are a minority targetted by other groups who desire the perceived greater wealth and ability of people of European descent. That a change will happen in this direction is not a question, to a broader observer of history. No one who has read a meaningful breadth of history is surprised at the authoritarian moves of the Bush administration; authoritarianism is how one deals with a divided society at the end of its cycle, like our own spoiled and fat and directionless one - whether it's Bush or not is a different question. Similarly, since we know a resurgence of nationalism is going to inevitably occur, it's time to pick the most sensible form of nationalism possible.

    In many ways, this issue is similar to the different approaches of Nietzsche, Schopenhauer and Hitler to Christianity. Nietzsche said, in effect, "Christianity is sick and Jewish; let us destroy it." The more contemplative and pessimistic Schopenhauer said simply, let us pick the best form of Christianity - and, as astute philologicians know, he was thinking of his early influence Meister Eckhardt. Hitler, being of exclusively a practical mind, essentially took Schopenhauer a step further: let us decide what is a sensible religion, and make Christianity into it. These three thinkers all knew the problems with Christianity, and took different paths to a solution, but the end result of these paths - which are but a means to an end - would be the same, whether it were labelled Christianity, Hinduism, Nazism or New Age. It isn't the label on it that matters, but the structure of the thoughts (philosophy) inside of it.

    When we look at Nationalism today, the people who watch too much TV, buy too many movies and download too much mainstream music from SoulSeek will recoil in horror and say, "Nationalism is fascist and racist; let us destroy it." The hardcore clubhouse neo-Nazi types will harrumph and proclaim it "not extreme enough." The level-headed thinkers, whether we are inclined toward nationalism or not, will decide that regardless of label, this could be a way to adopt sensible values into an insensible society, and thus move ourselves from a diseased time forward. At that level of thought, whether or not our future is nationalist does not matter - outside of the primary statement of nationalism, which is grouping of peoples into political entities by both ethnicity and culture (and not politics, as is the case in patriotism), there are many more issues which fit together to form a philosophy. The question incumbent upon us is what that philosophy might be, and how to pick the best one so that our reform extends beyond questions of nationality alone.

    To those who observe dying civilizations, it is clear that the primary trait is a loss of goal, or shared values, and when that occurs, money and personal pretense ("rights" and "freedoms" to do whatever freaky, self-destructive, or cancerously degenerate thing one desires) fill in the void. Replacing a monetarist civilization, or one in which the primary goal is economic competition as a means of giving the individual power, requires we find a higher value than money - that we return to a healthier stage of society, when there was a bigger motivation than personal wealth. For this reason, there should be reason for all to take heart at the adoption of nationalism; it means we are ever-so-slowly moving on from the low point in human history where "it's profitable" was the only justification we sought or needed. Yet as mentioned above, the concept "nationalism" is only one aspect of complete political worldview, although nationalism has been throughout history associated with other values as well.

    The broader historical view suggests that we view this not as much as a political change, but a philosophical one: we're moving on from issue-based politics, materialism and individualism, and we're heading toward organic collectivism. The remaining question for a nationalist society involves how it designates ethnic-cultural groups, and how then it decides to structure society to support them.

    In current politics, Nationalism is roughly divided into several camps. One of the most prominent are the Nordicists, who argue that the Nordic (and some will say, as Hitler did, the "Nordic-Germanic") strain is the closest we have to the original ethnic-cultural group that emerged from Northern Europe to establish the societies of Greece, India, Rome, Egypt, and so forth. Most historical data supports this assumption, although it's fair to note that, at least according to linguistic derivation, that original group fragmented and diversified rapidly, although retained its core values and beliefs. Nordicists argue that Nordics must be preserved from admixture by (a) other races and (b) other Indo-European ethnic-cultural groups. They do not harbor ill-will toward those other groups, but wish them to each exist as their own nationality, refining themselves through positive breeding as best they can. This is the oldest tradition in nationalism, and it essentially states that the tribes should be separated and work together for common goals, but each must rule itself.

    Radically contrasted to the Nordicists are the "Pan-Aryanists" or "White Nationalists," who believe that all things white should exist on the same stratum, and thus we should combine white races and tribes to produce a universal "white culture" which we can then breed toward a higher level. This belief is the most modern form of nationalism, and comes almost exclusively from countries in which a high degree of inter-tribal mixing has already occurred, such as in the United States, Canada, Russia and the UK. The Pan-Aryanists think that anyone of partial Nordic-Germanic-"Aryan" heritage should be included in one giant tribe, and that tribe can approximate its culture from that mix. Admittedly, this is the most pragmatic view in mixed cultures, because to divide the United States, for example, into tribal groups would be easy in some areas (mainly the South) but impossible in others (such as New York, where almost every "white" person is Irish-English-German-Slavic-Italian or some variant thereof). For this reason, American and English neo-Nazi and white nationalist groups almost exclusively adhere to this belief.

    For the sake of convenience, I will call these views Tribalism and Demographicism, respectively. The first is called tribal because it believes in the division of tribes, and the second demographic, as it looks practically at how people self-identify in mixed cultures. It's important to note that both are nationalism, although tribalism divides on the basis of race and tribe, where demographicism divides only on the basis of the largest part of ethnic heritage. Tribalists tend to shy away from the idea of mixing relatively pure tribes (Germans, Scandinavians) with tribes already displaying admixture, and there's a good amount of historical data to suggest that their point is valid: once mixed, always mixed, or so history dictates; mixing creates a local culture that cannot return to its original state. Where demographicists have the advantage, of course, is in a modern democracy; if you can unite people by the fact of being "white," it's easier than trying to address individual tribes and then getting them to cooperate.

    Also, as is impossible to miss, it's essential that some form of demographicist nationalism exist for those Polish-French-Irish-German-Spanish hybrids in America, the UK, and Canada (as well as the corresponding Germanic-Baltid-Slavic-Mongol hybrids in Russia and Eastern Europe, and the Semitic hybrids of the Mediterranean and UK). Without this demographicism, they have the unsteady participation in nationalism of being identified as new mixes, such as "American" or "English," that do not directly describe a single bloodline. But for those who are mostly unmixed, does it make sense to blend their bloodline, especially with hybrids that include non-Indo-European races?

    Clearly this is where the Nordicists make the most sense: if you're going to preserve a race, do so by starting with that which is less mixed and work outward toward other strata. For this reason, I'd like to propose a new vision of nationalism, called "Preservationism."

    Preservationism not only formulates a more sensible grouping of Nationalists, but also, associates with nationalism a general agenda that not only supports the political needs of nationalism, but the philosophy that allows people to appreciate it. Preservationism includes a form of nationalism, but is not limited to it; however, for practical political purposes, we can call it a type of nationalism. Where Preservation differs from Nordicism is that it is willing to create a Pan-Indo-European group and call it, for lack of a better term, "English"; this applies to all mixed-tribal white people, and separates them from those of relatively pure (3/4 or more) tribal heritage. It differs from Pan-Aryanism/White Nationalism in that it believes in preservation of those relatively unmixed Indo-European groups, and their separation from others.

    The reason for this is inherent in the name: unlike most neo-Nazi or White Nationalist groups, Preservationists do not seek to prove that other races are inferior or unfit. They seek instead to assert that their own group needs to be preserved, and the only way to preserve it is through nationalism, including exclusion of all other races and tribes. Further, Preservationists seek to, in the same way the Nazis championed "Blood and Soil," establish a communitarian principle of government; this means, for you who are familiar with leftist language, an impulse toward localization and permanent association of ethnic groups with ancestral land. The reason for this is also derived from the name: Preservationists seek to continue what nature started, and to act in concert with both natural order and Tradition, in the Julius Evola-Rene Guenon-F.W. Nietzsche sense. They recognize that the "progressive" vision of society is Utopian delusion, and seek to restore the only working form of society that has existed, and that is one where humans see themselves and nature as participants in a cosmic order, and thus work toward "ideals," or designs of a higher evolutionary nature - not "new" and "empowering" ideas in government, or politics, or art, but better versions of the eternal philosophical concept that unifies them all.

    Preservationists are simultaneously Green, Nationalist, and Localist - this is the essence of communitarian, or community-based, government. A local community defines itself by its land, its culture, and its heritage, in this view. Unlike Pan-Aryanist/White Nationalist views, Preservationism is detached from the implement of modern society - large centralized bureaucracies - and returns to an order by which civilizations develop independently with allegiances only against common enemies. In this, it allows a return of Traditionalist values to Indo-European culture, with these including, among other things, a reverence for cosmic order including the system of karma, by which one moves from a least-evolved state to a highest state of evolution. As karma is conveyed through the vehicle of evolutionary breeding, it is not only a racial hierarchy, but one of castes and individual abilities as well. Unlike Judeo-Christian morality, karma does not posit good or evil, but says that if one lives according to higher ideals, one steadily moves up through the caste system from lowest to highest. This happens over many lives, and could as easily describe the process of selective breeding as some kind of reincarnation. For those who believe that the design of their bodies, including minds, creates their consciousness, the two are roughly convertible concepts.

    We cannot undo history. The division of the Indo-European peoples has happened; our technology running roughshod over the world and destroying much has happened; our political failures have occurred and cannot be taken back. What we can do is to start working on what we have now, and to take it to a Traditional state, including caste systems. This requires we take a clue from the Nordicists and, for unmixed tribes of whites, breed them into better versions of what they are: Germans, Scandinavians, Mediterraneans, Slavs, Irish. Mixing the unmixed is destructive, and will accomplish the same destruction of heritage toward which modern society aims. As each group carries in its collective genetic memory the recollection of events and decisions made in the karmic cycle to reach its current position, mixing would obliterate that past and start the entire race of white people off at a lower level. However, for those who are already mixed, giving them a cultural identity - English - and encouraging through selective breeding the refinement of that ideal, will produce - much as it has in Slavs, Irish, Italians - a local culture which will steadily move upward toward greatness.

    Furthermore, by associating each group to a local community, we remove the braindead system of centralized bureaucracy and replace it with localization, including environmental protection, as who would poison the land of their ancestors which their children will inherit? This also allows diversification, and the rise of those who are more capable and of better moral character, without lumping us all together and standardizing us to a single level in the same way modernity accomplishes all of its political aims. Pan-Aryanism is modernity; Nordicism is too limited; Preservationism is right. As democracy collapses, and individualism reveals itself to be unfettered selfishness, fascism and nationalism are coming - if we inform ourselves to the degree that we can understand why Preservationism makes sense, we can make nationalism an enduring success instead of another stage in a lugubrious decline.


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    Last edited by DarkZarathustra; 05-11-2009 at 05:53 PM.

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    Formerly 'Cythraul' Freomæg's Avatar
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    Ahhh.... ANUS! I had a strong suspicion whilst reading this that it had been penned by the guy from ANUS. I'm familiar with his writings and postings elsewhere on the Internet and his arrogance never ceases to amaze me. He always promotes the same concepts - Nordicism, Environmentalism, Romanticism, Anti-Modernism. Some points I strongly agree with whilst others adhere to his narrow view of reality. Regarding this particular article:

    I agree with:
    - "Preservationists do not seek to prove that other races are inferior or unfit"
    - "permanent association of ethnic groups with ancestral land"

    I disagree with (and find to be nonsense, largely):
    - The anti-British bias. Since when did Englishmen consist of the "Semitic hybrids of the Mediterranean and UK"?
    - The notion that anything non-(pure)Nordid must be due to distant interracial mixture.
    - "This is the oldest tradition in nationalism, and it essentially states that the tribes should be separated and work together for common goals, but each must rule itself." - Really?! It's the oldest tradition? I thought the oldest tradition of nationalism was, well, nationalism. If the oldest tradition of nationalism is tribalism, then England (and many European countries) can never claim any kind of nationalist movement due to its ethnic makeup consisting of multiple tribes at the time of the nation's birth. I can't think of one European country that consists of a 100% subracially homogeneous people. If tribes are to be divided along subracial lines then how does this guy expect nationalism to come about? And if he doesn't, does he realise that tribalism is not a workable political ideology?
    Last edited by Freomæg; 05-11-2009 at 11:41 AM. Reason: Thank you for pointing out my spelling inadequacies ;)

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    Now why on earth does he want to introduce Karma? Seriously sounds like a new-age nationalist or some such. There are some fine pointers but I could never accept such an alien system as a basis of how we are ruled..

    To my limited knowledge we do not have re-birth in our old culture... why should we have the concept now?

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    I'm a preservationist who happens to believe that both Nordicism and Pan-Aryanism are dangerous to people of European descent.

    Nordicism is bad because it essentially excludes people who are clearly white (just not blond-haired and blue eyed) and Pan-Aryanism is bad because it includes people who clearly aren't white.
    "Tradition is tending the flame, not worshiping the ashes." - Gustav Mahler

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dresden View Post
    I'm a preservationist who happens to believe that both Nordicism and Pan-Aryanism are dangerous to people of European descent.
    It depends on the source, though. In other words, there is equal evidence (Archaeological, Genetic, and Etiological) that the 'Aryan' movement was North to South as it was South (from the Indic region) to North.

    'We', as Moderns, tend to equate writing systems and documentation with truth. Equally, we tend to dismiss oral traditions as antiquated and unreliable.

    This is a through and through Modern notion.


    The incessant obfuscation of terminological distinctions on the internet amongst the not yet educated enough to utilise the terms does not help, either. Anyone (and yes, I am utilising an Absolute, here) who is not aware that 11.000 years ago, present day Europe was - by and large - populated by a majority of Blond(e)/ Auburn haired, pail-eyed Cromagnoid/Nordoids, is - quite simply - naive.

    Nordicism is bad because it essentially excludes people who are clearly white (just not blond-haired and blue eyed)
    It is an all-too-Human trait to define 'White' based on current (Modern) circumstance. I think - and believe - in my heart of Hearts, that this stems from a remarkable self-loathing that is the Natural result of the intermingling of particular sub-Racial types. Although I expect very little agreement on this, I don't care: what I care about, is that if we take 'Modernity' and Modern circumstance to its logical conclusions, we've no reason to not accept Aremenoids, Sunoids, Bambutoids (etc., etc.) into the European fold, even though they be not Europid.

    ...and Pan-Aryanism is bad because it includes people who clearly aren't white.
    To go off nothing other than skin colour, is to trivialise Race to the point of absolute absurdity.


    It is truly dissapointing that there is not a greater knowledge of such things represented in this forum, especially given that the SNPA is now fused with this forum.
    Often, in our attempts to show people that they do not know what they believe they do, it is exposed that they lack any identity whatsoever - beyond the belief that they know anything at all.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SuuT View Post
    It depends on the source, though. In other words, there is equal evidence (Archaeological, Genetic, and Etiological) that the 'Aryan' movement was North to South as it was South (from the Indic region) to North.
    Give over SuuT. Out of India is pure drivel, made up to make Indians feel better about themselves. Indic languages are new to India, there's tons of Munda and Dravidian substrate, and there are traces of Indic in the ancient Euxine region. Case closed.
    Anyone (and yes, I am utilising an Absolute, here) who is not aware that 11.000 years ago, present day Europe was - by and large - populated by a majority of Blond(e)/ Auburn haired, pail-eyed Cromagnoid/Nordoids, is - quite simply - naive.
    Give over again. Europe was never so simple racially. I don't come from Africa. Not in 11,000 years' recency, anyroad. People like me have been here since forever.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Oswiu View Post
    Give over SuuT. Out of India is pure drivel, made up to make Indians feel better about themselves. Indic languages are new to India, there's tons of Munda and Dravidian substrate, and there are traces of Indic in the ancient Euxine region. Case closed.
    Yet again, we are in agreement, and I seem to be the only one to realise it. My English is not so bad, is it?

    Give over again. Europe was never so simple racially....
    Yeah, Woo, it was (With the exception of Indigenous Kelts [who may have been a fair-haired Race prior to Corded Ware Kultural influx/Racial admixture]). It is common knowledge that prior to Moorish/Arab invasions in the south, that even Sicily and Southern Italy was (at the least) goverened by a fair ruling Caste.

    Even MODERN ACEDEMICIANS are in accord with this, for the gods sake.

    I don't come from Africa. Not in 11,000 years' recency, anyroad.
    Correct. As a Kelt, you are a product of Racial and Evolutionary procession occurring since the last Glacial Maximisation.



    People like me have been here since forever.
    Oh yeah?
    Often, in our attempts to show people that they do not know what they believe they do, it is exposed that they lack any identity whatsoever - beyond the belief that they know anything at all.

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    ...(SuuT desperatley attempts to block-out the ambient/avric noise of those neurotically searching the internet in an attempt to figure-out who to push the "thanks" Icon for...)
    Often, in our attempts to show people that they do not know what they believe they do, it is exposed that they lack any identity whatsoever - beyond the belief that they know anything at all.

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    Out of the Ukraine is where these "Aryans originate"! Just because the Dravidians named them such does not make them Indian.
    The horse is what got these "Aryans" around, from Europe to China.

    There is an ongoing dispute as to when the horse was domesticated. Marija Gimbutas and others maintain that the Old European cultures never used the horse as anything but food, and certainly did not domesticate it prior to the arrival of the Kurgans. Gimbutas also contends that the Kurgans didn't domesticate the horse until about 5500 BC.

    The elegantly carved ivory horse above was found in a cave in Germany and is dated at about the same time as the mammoth paintings of Vallon Pont D'arc cave in France, 30,000 BC. This horse figurine certainly gives one the feeling that the artist knew her well.



    The bone and antler horses pictured here all carbon-date to the Magdalenian age, 14,000 BC to 9,500 BC. Dozens of such carvings that have been found in the caves of Southwestern France. Clearly they have bridles and straps -- indicating that humans had horses under their control. In the beginning horses might have been used for pulling. Horses could have been used to pull the weighty mammoth bones to the locations where mammothbone houses were built. Reindeer and cattle seem to have been ridden as well. Maybe even mammoth. Though very few would go so far as to believe that possible. I personally think it highly possible.

    If I may be so bold I would like to say that it seems possible to me that somehow Marija Gimbutas for some reason never heard about the Magdalenian horses with straps and bridles that were found in the caves of France and Spain. Because they really do speak for themselves. As much as I appreciate and admire the work of Marija Gimbutas, it does seem evident that the horse was domesticated long before 5500 BC. If we had to give a date to it 20,000 BC would not be out of reason, since many of the mammoth bone huts date that far back. Each structure was built from the bones of one hundred or so huge creatures which had to be brought somehow from whereever each one was killed to the site of the mammoth house being constructed. What an enormous amount of human work it would have been to bring each 200+ pound piece so far over hills and streams and rivers. Especially when it was a fresh kill because each tendon would need to be cut and each joint separated to get to a single bone. Short of that they would have to bring several pieces still connected together but that would certainly be more weight than they could manage. If they left the bones to sit and let the weather take its course another tribe might come along and take them for their own huts. So the smartest thing to do would be to get the entire mammoth home as quickly as possible, that means all the meat, all the hide, and all the tusks and bones. Duh! How long would it take a party of six hunters to carry all that sixty miles? --Times 90 mammoths for one house! But with a horse or mammoth to do the work the problem would be solved easily.

    Much has been written about the evolution of lithic technologies in ancient man, but it seems to me that very little has been written about the corresponding advancement of cordage technologies. Arrowheads and spearheads had to be lashed to wood. Anyone who has ever tied a simple knot expecting it to hold, that didn't hold at all, will vouch for the necessity of fastening cordage in such a way that it functions well. The cordage must be strong enough so as not to break, and the wrapping and tying must not loosen or fall apart. Certainly these skills evolved simultaneously to flint knapping with Neanderthal and Cro Magnon man. Pierced beads would need to be strung on strands of fiber. Many stone and ivory ornaments have holes in them. Cordage technology then would be a huge working of knowledge among these ancients. They would constantly be seeking improved wrappings and knots. They would use sinew and they would use mammoth wool and horse tail and whatever else seemed likely to work well. They would NOT simply use this technology to fasten stone points to wooden shafts. They would use it to tie all kinds of things together. Hides would be wrapped around legs and feet with thongs. Scaffolds of wood would be tied together in caves to allow artists to reach high places for their paintings. And most important to our focus here, cordage would allow ancient man to bridal a living animal from capture in its infancy and force the creature to walk beside him towing or carrying heavy burdens. Ancient man possessed this cordage technology. If he could lash a flint spearpoint to a staff he could loop a cord around the neck of a colt or even a baby mammoth and lead him anywhere he desired.

    So, with their knowledge of cordage they were completely able to tie up any living animal they came across, to capture it and take it with them. So why wouldn't they do it? If they killed a mare for food and the mare's tiny colt stood there looking at them on wobbly legs unable to run away, why would they have to kill it then and there? It wasn't going to escape. They had enough meat from the mare to feed them. They didn't need to kill the little colt too, did they? So the colt would live. And probably even follow them. They had the cordage knowledge to tether it. They would require no great stretch of imagination to put a cord around the colt's neck and lead it along with them. Or a baby mammoth the same. In short order these animals would not need tethers. They would be part of their human family. And sometimes the mother would take the child off her shoulders and set it on the back of the colt or the baby mammoth and let them carry it. It simply is illogical to believe that humans of the Magdalenian age never had horses or mammoths with them as they followed the herds. And it was probably even far older than that. Because orphaned baby animals will easily follow any human that is kind to it. Maybe not always, but sometimes. So this sort of thing would have been happening since the dawn of time and would have been the most natural thing in the world. -- And it would have been happening regardless of all the scientists today who say humans did not domesticate the horse until 2500BC.

    ***

    When the last great ice age was at its peak the mammoths especially loved the tall grasslands that existed near to the edge of the glacier and this is where many of them roamed. And horses too. With humans following. They could and did roam these grasslands from the easternmost part of the continent to the westernmost part of the continent. They had no limitations other than natural boundaries of mountains or lakes which they eventually found some way through or around. The way language works, a language is uniform to a people within the context of their boundaries. So if a group of people live sendentarily within the area of a certain river valley their language will form in its own way separate and different from all other communities. But the boundaries of the mammoth people were the vastest area that a single language has ever stretched. They were a people with a common purpose, to follow the herds that roamed the glacier grasslands. They did so generation after generation after generation as milleniums passed, roaming east to west and west to east with no boundaries. And speaking elemental words that were uniformly understood whereever they went. I think so.

    And this went on for thousands upon thousands of years until some unpassable boundaries formed which the mammoth people could not pass. And then the single language was divided. The boundaries formed when the weather warmed and the glacier began to melt. This great change didn't happen overnight, but gradually over a period of ten thousand years. Incrementally: an average increase in temperature of a thousandth of a degree hotter every year than the year before. Not very noticible in the lifespan of a man. But over the generations the increasing warmth changed their world. Immense rivers rushed forth that no humans could cross. These 30 mile wide hellish rivers remained uncrossable for thousands of years. These rivers not only divided the mammoth people, they also divided language development. One group of mammoth hunters in particular were affected. The people that Marija Giimbutas has named the Kurgan people. They lived east of the 30 mile wide Volga River which flowed from the Northern Glacier to the Caspian Sea. The vast Eurasiatic Steppe extends east to Mongolia. Herds of horses and mammoths roamed this grassy world, just as they always had. But with the difference that they could no longer go to the western lands.

    [IMG]

    The Kurgans lived on the western edge of the vast area known as Siberia. This map shows many of the archeological mammoth finds in Asia. Notice that the finds are mostly along rivers or the arctic shoreline. Much of this area was glacier free during the ice age. Mammoths are thought to have followed the rivers south in the fall and north in the spring. Whereever the mammoths went the human hunters followed. Primitive man was capable of traveling long distances. Notice the distance between France and the Black Sea on this map and think about the Danubian hunters who migrated along the Danube and Rhine. That distance is hardly anything compared to the vast Russian steppes. To cover the great distances in Siberia humans needed to ride animals. The red dot furthest to the right, is Wrangle Island where mammoths lived until about 4000 years ago. A mammoth from the southern Kolima River has been carbon-dated to around 9000 BC. So it is a safe guess that a few mammoths may have survived on the mainland as recently as 8000 BC. Notice the mammoth sites on the southern Ob River.

    The map on the lower right shows the locations of paleolithic human sites in Siberia. Here along the rivers are found many of the characteristic round homes of the mammoth hunters with the 200 pound jawbones interlocked together. For ten thousand years these solid mammothbone huts wore into their brains and hearts and traditions. Nothing quite gave them the sense of home and timelessness than these 20 ton mammothbone huts. Their mammothbone drums were inside the huts, their whistles and flutes, their flint knives, their carnelian agates, their flint knives and axes, their amber jewelry -- all the precious memories of their culture for more than ten thousand years were in their hearts in the form of a gleaming white home of ivory. Perhaps this is why it was that milleniums later when their direct descendants died they preferred to be buried in round tumulus graves, heavy stones and clay topped with an earthen mound. And inside with them were all the things that were precious to them in life. These tumulus burials have come to be called "kurgans" from the Turkish word for "barrow" or "tumulus". These are the Kurgan people -- the descendants of the mammoth hunters.

    The area between the Enisey/Ob Rivers and the Volga River are the land of Kurgan roots. These were mammoth hunters until the mega-fauna vanished. Afterwards horses and cattle were their mainstay. Paleoanthropologists believe that the herding of cattle, the ownership of herds, created the concept of property. And since it was easier to steal grown cattle than to raise them this led to pillaging and warfare. The Kurgan people rode and herded horses. From these circumstances evolved the ruthless far-wandering Kurgan horseman.




    During the final centuries of the ice age these people lived in a land of rushing torrential rivers and the largest freshwater lakes that have ever been on earth. The lake that covered most of what is now Siberia was at one time over 1500 miles wide. The Volga was a churning vision of hell.

    The mighty Ob flows north to the Arctic. Blocked by the icecap the entire Ob valley formed a huge lake which no human could cross, unless perhaps on the back of a swimming mammoth -- or on a log being towed by a mammoth... Look at the maps above and notice that the human sites on the Ob coincide with the mammoth sites. They lived close together. Which indicates to me once again that humans had domesticated the mammoth. This domestication would have led quickly to the mammoth's extinction, because packaderms have poor eyesight and hunters easily invade to the center of wild herds on the backs of their domesticated mammoth. Horses also could have been ridden into mammoth herds, or to chase an isolated mammoth until it was exhausted. Add to all this the incredible advancement of lithic technology. The flint blades were the most effective killing tools that had ever been known. A single stroke of flint spearpoint at the soft underbellie of a mammoth would spill its innards to the ground in an instant. And so it happened that mammoths went extinct in this age. And not only mammoths, but all the megafauna on earth.

    There must have been vast numbers of people who gazed upon that end of the mammoths with horror. Because it is natural for humans to see God in everything, and especially in a beautiful wild creature like a buffalo. And surely it was even moreso with the mammoth. For the mammoth was a huge thing, a sensitive creature who shared with humans the clear capacity to love. They lived in herds and protected each other, and watched over their young. They could be fierce, but overall they were gentle creatures. With horror most of the human race watched their demise. And this event affected the spiritual development of the human race in ways that are quite subconscious now, since it happened so many thousands of years ago. But the affects are there, nonetheless, down deep inside us. This same terrible deed also affected the mammoth hunters themselves, the ones who killed the last mammoths. For they could not do this without losing some of their own human sensitivity. They had to de-sensitize themselves. They had to numb themselves to what they were doing. They had to learn to rationalize the huge fact that they knew they were killing the last of a magnificent species of animal, and that when they were gone they would never return again. It is no wonder that these Kurgan people would eventually run rampant across the western lands of Old Europe, murdering and massacring and raping and pillaging.


    You will notice Omsk on the maps. Here in the area of Omsk we find both mammoths and ancient man. Close by is the ancient village of Petropavlosk, perhaps the most ancient Kurgan site we know of today. Over 100,000 horsebones have been discovered near Petropavlosk dating back to around 5500 BC. One cannot help but wonder when the last mammoth was seen in the area of Omsk and Petropavlosk... Of all the animal bones found in the area horse bones constitute ninety percent. So we see from this that the Kurgan people were not nearly as interested in deer or cattle or sheep or goats as they were in horses. Another early Kurgan site is the Samara culture on the Volga river dating to around 5000 BC. Horse figurines, carved of bone and worn as pendants have been found here. And after a person was buried a fire was built atop his mound and a horse was sacrificed and burned there.

    To the west of the Volga we find great rivers which flow west and northwest out of the Black Sea towards the Baltic, The Danube, Dneister, Dneiper and others; and other great rivers which start in the mountains and flow into the Atlantic or Baltic, the Rhine, Elbe, Oder, and Vistula. In this land of rivers there developed a boat people we now call The Maglemosian Culture. They traveled in dugout canoes. The oldest one, found in the Netherlands carbon-dates to 8000 BC. Another from NW Britain is equally as old. Still another from the Netherlands carbon-dates to 6300 BC. Archeologists have discovered that some of the trade items of these boat people originate from as far away as the Tigris-Eurphrates Valley, which of course is the location where Sumer came into existance. The Maglemosian Culture existed from about 8000 BC to 5700 BC. Considering once again that the extent of a language is determined by its range of social contact we may consider that the Proto Uralic language was dominant throughout this entire area.

    The mammoths were all gone by the time the Volga had returned to the proportions we know of today and the Kurgans were finally able to cross. One wonders how the first meetings went between the Kurgan people and the people of the Black Sea.

    "Hmmmph! Who are YOU??!!" "Where did YOU come from???" "Where did you get such pretty and unusual jewelry???" "Are all your daughters THIS BEAUTIFUL???" "Who is the mightiest warrier between you and me?" "How about a game of chance?" "So you are hungry are you? Well -- I will give you four cattle and one bull for the girl with the red hair." "Go away quickly with your strange language and funny ways! We are tired of you people. You annoy us and make trouble. Go back to your own land before we have a war between us..."

    Except they could not speak each other's language. Because the uncrossable iceage Volga had separated their language development. The language spoken by the Kurgan peoples was the Proto-PIE language. And the language of the people west of the Volga and the Black Sea was the non-IndoEuropean, Proto Uralic language. The only way the two cultures had of communicating was by drawing pictures in the sand, or in clay. And so, is it possible that this was how and why the first pictographs came into being? Because the earliest symbols scratched on clay pots from archeological digs near the Black Sea have been carbon-dated to between 6 and 7 thousand BC. Which is about when the Kurgans would have finally been able to cross the Volga to enter the lands of the Black Sea people.

    The Sacred Huts

    I wonder if we might have failed to realize the impression the primordial mammoth huts made upon the descendants of the people who built them. Mesolithic hunter/gatherers in their wanderings would certainly come upon mammoth hut ruins time after time after time. There were so many of these mammoth bone huts, gleaming white in the sun, spread all over the best hunting grounds of Poland and the Ukraine, sinking deeper and deeper into the earth as each century passed. Weighing many tons each the huts would not be moved by storm or even earthquake. They would just sit there and glow like ivory moonlight on the earth. They would be reverred. Think of it. A thousand years after the last mammoth had died there would still remain these mammoth bone huts for all to see. Two thousand years. Three thousand years. Still standing. Hunters who knew animals well, knew bones, would see these huge bones and be dumbstruck. What sort of creature had such huge bones? And then the realization would come to them that it was their ancestors who had hunted the great beasts and built the huts. The mammoth bone huts would be sacred to them, would represent their ancestors. And their awe would build and build with each generation as the milleniums passed between 20,000 BC and the time of the kurgans, 5000 BC. The mammothbone hut would be featured in their oral traditions passed on from grandfather to father to son down through the ages. As the centuries and milleniums passed the earth and grass would rise higher and higher around the mammoth bones until finally all that would be left would be a mound of earth -- and still their oral traditions would tell them the bones of their noble ancestors lay beneath that mound. This shining ivory mausoleum vision and the round mound of earth were embedded in their psyches. They would come to these huts as if to a temple and sit inside and observe the moonlight upon the ivory and listen to the wind and they would tap at the bones with their stone tools. This was their sacred ivory moonlight xylophone temple.



    Songs and chants and genealogies sung solemnly by their ancient men and women and listened to with awe-struck ears by wide-eyed children would bridge the ages long gap between the builders of the mammoth huts and the people of the Kurgan burial mounds.

    In the oldest of the old Irish tales there is often a line that is a curse upon any ollamh that changes so much as a single word of a sacred song. Songs had to memorized and passed on to the next generation exact. Genealogies in particular. Every name had to be remembered. Oral genealogies went back a thousand years or more that we know of. The genealogies of the Bible were oral memories before they were first written down. Genealogies contained not only names, but the great deeds of men and women. In addition to genealogies, great migrations were remembered, great wars, great heroics, great possessions, great personalities, as wisemen and genealogists.... Caesar said the druids studied for 20 years in Britain before they came to Gaul. Wise men everywhere, in all cultures, were responsible for the oral memories of their people. And it is certain that each word of each song had to be remembered exact. Or penalties could be exacted. The tradition was severe.

    Ten thousand years seems a long time to us today. We live in an age of top forty radio hits where the top song on the hit parade today is lost and forgotten by the next generation, if not by the next year. Memorization is so neglected that it is possible that the human mind has actually lost a great ability that it once possessed. Young Jewish scholars are still required to memorize entire books of the Bible. But few other cultures strengthen the mind in these ways. So there is the bridge. Keen and exceedingly rigorous oral tradition. Kurgan children learning to sing exactly the same songs that their great great great great great great great great great great great great great great grandfathers sang. Telling exactly the same stories. Learning the sacredness of retelling the story exactly the way they heard it. Sometimes even down to the syllables. Sometimes, so much so, that the song is in an ancient religion that isn't even spoken by the people anymore, and isn't even understood by anyone in the clan except the priest. Sacred Priest languages exist in many cultures. My grandmother taught me the words of an old Norwegian song when I was a little boy. I still remember the words. But I don't know their exact meaning.

    We would think it weird today for anyone to have only oral tradition knowledge and no books, no television, no libraries. Only a family campfire that goes back a hundred thousand years and more. But this ancient family campfire was also the cultural library and school of the people. To such people as these the white boned huts disappearing into the earth on the family hunting grounds would be among their most sacred focal points. The huge gleaming ivory bones of creatures that no longer exist... What stories might they have that held more power than this?

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    Quote Originally Posted by SuuT View Post
    It depends on the source, though. In other words, there is equal evidence (Archaeological, Genetic, and Etiological) that the 'Aryan' movement was North to South as it was South (from the Indic region) to North.
    I'm curious. Is this point regarding the theory that R1a1 has it's origins around present day Poland?

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