Christianity and Snorri's Edda..

[Lyfing]

Some say Snorri was a pagan in disguise writing the myths in such a way as to get away with it. Some say he made our gods out to be oath-breakers and our goddesses whores. Whatever the case may be I wonder what in his Edda can be taken as Christian notions..?? Rydberg is accused of seeing in our myths too much good and evil and thus himself offering a Christianized interpretation, even though he was maybe the first Snorri basher..

Here are a couple of quotes from Rydberg's Teutonic Mythology pointing out some of the things “wrong” with Snorri's Edda..

Regarding the three roots of Yggdrasil..

Since one of Yggdrasil's roots thus had received its place far up in the heavens, it became necessary to place a second root on a level with the earth and the third one was allowed to retain its position in the lower world. Thus was produced a just distribution of the roots among the three regions which in the conception of the middle ages constituted the universe, namely, the heavens, the earth, and hell.

…

In this way Gylfaginning, with the Trojan hypothesis as its starting-point, has gotten so far that it has separated from the lower world with its three realms and three fountains Urd's realm and fountain, they being transferred to the heavens, and Mimir's realm and fountain, they being transferred to Jotunheim. In the mythology these two realms were the subterranean regions of bliss, and the third, Niflhel, with the regions subject to it, was the abode of the damned. After these separations were made, Gylfaginning, to be logical, had to assume that the lower world of the heathens was exclusively a realm of misery and torture, a sort of counterpart of the hell of the Church. This conclusion is also drawn with due consistency, and Yggdrasil's third root, which in the mythology descended to the well Hvergelmir and to the lower world of the frost-giants, Niflhel, Niflheim, extends over the whole lower world, the latter being regarded as identical with Niflheim and the places of punishment therewith connected.

56.THE COSMOGRAPHY. CRITICISM ON GYLFAGINNING'S COSMOGRAPHY.

Regarding Ragnarok..

A closer examination ought to have shown that Gylfaginning's conception of "Muspell's sons" is immensely at variance with the mythical. Under the influence of Christian ideas they are transformed into a sort of angels of light, who appear in Ragnarok to contend under the command of Surt "to conquer all the idols" (sigra öll goðin - Gylfaginning 4) and carry out the punishment of the world. While Völuspá makes them come with Loki in the ship Naglfar, that is, from the terrible rocky isle in the sea over which eternal darkness broods, and while Lokasenna makes them come across the Darkwood, whose name does not suggest any region in the realm of light, Gylfaginning tells us that they are celestial beings. Idols and giants contend with each other on Vigrid's plains; then the heavens are suddenly rent in twain, and out of it ride in shining squadrons "Muspell's sons" and Surt, with his flaming sword, at the head of the fylkings. Gylfaginning is careful to keep these noble riders far away from every contact with that mob which Loki leads to the field of battle. It therefore expressly states that they form a fylking by themselves (Í þessum gný klofnar himinninn, og ríða þaðan Múspells synir; Surtur ríður fyrstur, &c. . . . en Múspells synir hafa einir sér fylking, og er sú björt mjög - ch. 51). Thus they do not come to assist Loki, but to put an end to both the idols and the mob of giants. The old giant, Surt, who, according to a heathen skald, Eyvind Skaldaspillir, dwells in sökkdalir, in mountain grottos deep under the earth (see about him, No. 89), is in Gylfaginning first made the keeper of the borders of "Muspellsheim," and then the chief of celestial hosts. But this is not the end of his promotion. In the text found in the Upsala Codex, Gylfaginning makes him lord in Gimle, and likewise the king of eternal bliss. After Ragnarok it is said, "there are many good abodes and many bad"; best it is to be in Gimle with Surt (margar eru vistar góðar og margar illar, bezt er að vera á Gimle með Surti). The name Surt means black. We find that his dark looks did not prevent his promotion, and this has been carried to such a point that a mythologist who honestly believed in Gylfaginning saw in him the Almighty who is to come after the regeneration to equalise and harmonise all discord, and to found holy laws to prevail for ever.

Under such circumstances, it may be suggested as a rule of critical caution not to accept unconditionally Gylfaginning's statement that the world of light and heat which existed before the creation of the world was called Muspell or Muspellsheim. In all probability, this is a result of the author's own reflections. At all events, it is certain that no other record has any knowledge of that name. But that the mythology presumed the existence of such a world follows already from the fact that Urd's fountain, which gives the warmth of life to the world-tree, must have had its deepest fountain there, just as Hvergelmir has its in the world of primeval cold, and Mimir has his fountain in that wisdom which unites the opposites and makes them work together in a cosmic world.

78. THE PLACES OF PUNISHMENT (continued). LOKI'S CAVE OF PUNISHMENT. GYLFAGINNING'S CONFOUNDING OF MUSPELL'S SONS WITH THE SONS OF SUTTUNG.

…

It is also possible that Snorri made up Hermod riding to Hel..

In the aftermath of Baldr’s funeral, Hermóðr rides to Hel, the Norse underworld realm of the dead, to bargain with a mythological being (also named Hel) for the release and return of the innocent god whose death has been accomplished by Loki’s treachery. His mission is unsuccessful, as Loki’s further machinations prevent the fulfilment of Hel’s conditions for Baldr’s release: every living thing must weep for him, and the giantess Þkk (probably Loki in disguise) refuses. It is a well known story from the main eschatological cycle of Norse myth, spanning the period between Baldr’s death and Loki’s binding, the event that precedes, even if it does not immediately precipitate, the beginning of Ragnarök. For all its apparent importance to the mythology as a whole, however, the narrative of Hermóðr’s ride is found in but one text: Snorri Sturluson’s Gylfaginning.

…

The idea for Hermóðr’s helreið was presumably not Snorri’s. Perhaps there really was a pre-extant eddic poem on the subject. It is a possibility that cannot be discounted. There is, however, no such poem available to us, nor are we ever likely to find one. If Snorri had access to *Baldrskviða in its entirety, his use of it (quoting only one stanza in full, but making an extensive unattributed paraphrase of its full narrative) would be out of line with his general treatment of eddic verse quotations elsewhere in Gylfaginning. But he does not need to have known *Baldrskviða; if this hypothesised poem never existed, the motifs that appear in this episode would still have been available to Snorri; they were in circulation, in Iceland and Norway, at this period, in Christian texts. Indeed, in many cases, the features of Snorri’s underworld and Hermóðr’s descent into it resemble Christian traditions about hell much more than they do any identifiable pagan notions about the Norse Hel.

Snorri’s Invention of Hermóðr’s helreið

Anyone know of anything else to read on, and/or have any thoughts on the matter..??

Later,
-Lyfing

[Jamt]

I have excavigated spurs from Iron-Age graves In central Sweden, They are not un-common. Folklore has it that you need the spurs for the icy road to Hel and this folklore is simply not Christian. I would say tht this and other archealogicil finds somtimes cast a light on stuff written.

[Lyfing]

I wish I could dig up stuff like that around here. I'm lucky if I find an Indian arrow-head..

There is much to Hel that I do think is original with us. I think Snorri's story of Hermod is rather much like a Christian version though.

Not only that, but as Rydberg says..

Hence it follows of necessity that the goddess of fate, Urd, is identical with the personal Hel, the queen of the realm of death, particularly of its regions of bliss. We have seen that Hel in its local sense has the general signification, the realm of death, and the special but most frequent signification, the elysium of the kingdom of death. As a person, the meaning of the word Hel must be analogous to its signification as a place. It is the same idea having a personal as well as a local form.

The conclusion that Urd is Hel is inevitable, unless we assume that Urd, though queen of her fountain, is not the regent of the land where her fountain is situated. One might then assume Hel to be one of Urd's sisters, but these have no prominence as compared with herself. One of them, Skuld, who is the more known of the two, is at the same time one of Urd's maid-servants, a valkyrie, who on the battlefield does her errands, a feminine psycho-messenger who shows the fallen the way to Hel, the realm of her sisters, where they are to report themselves ere they get to their destination. Of Verdandi the records tell us nothing but the name, which seems to preclude the idea that she should be the personal Hel.

This result, that Urd is identical with Hel; that she who dispenses life also dispenses death; that she who with her serving sisters is the ruler of the past, the present, and the future, also governs and gathers in her kingdom all generations of the past, present, and future - this result may seem unexpected to those who, on the authority of Gylfaginning, have assumed that the daughter of Loki cast into the abyss of Niflhel is the queen of the kingdom of death; that she whose threshold is called Precipice (Gylfaginning 34) was the one who conducted Baldur over the threshold to the subterranean citadel glittering with gold; that she whose table is called Hunger and whose knife is called Famine was the one who ordered the clear, invigorating mead to be placed before him; that the sister of those foes of the gods and of the world, the Midgard-serpent and the Fenris-wolf was entrusted with the care of at least one of Yggdrasil's roots; and that she whose bed is called Sickness, jointly with Urd and Mimir, has the task of caring for the world-tree and seeing that it is kept green and gets the liquids from their fountains.

Colossal as this absurdity is, it has been believed for centuries. And in dealing with an absurdity which is centuries old, we must consider that it is a force which does not yield to objections simply stated, but must be conquered by clear and convincing arguments. Without the necessity of travelling the path by which I have reached the result indicated, scholars would long since have come to the conviction that Urd and the personal Hel are identical, if Gylfaginning and the text-books based thereon had not confounded the judgment, and that for the following reasons:...

63. THE WORD HEL IN OTHER PASSAGES. THE RESULT OF THE INVESTIGATION FOR THE COSMOGRAPHY AND FOR THE MEANING OF THE WORD HEL. HEL IN A LOCAL SENSE THE KINGDOM OF DEATH, PARTICULARLY ITS REALMS OF BLISS. HEL IN A PERSONAL SENSE IDENTICAL WITH THE GODDESS OF FATE AND DEATH, THAT IS, URD.

And what of Odainsakur..

50.
ANALYSIS OF THE SAGAS MENTIONED IN NOS. 44-48. THE QUESTION IN REGARD TO THE IDENTIFICATION OF ODAINSAKUR.

Is Gudmund an invention of Christian times, although he is placed in an environment which in general and in detail reflects the heathen mythology? Or is there to be found in the mythology a person who has precisely the same environment and is endowed with the same attributes and qualities?

The latter form an exceedingly strange ensemble, and can therefore easily be recognised. Ruler in the lower world, and at the same time a giant. Pious and still a giant. King in a domain to which winter cannot penetrate. Within that domain an enclosed place, whose bulwark neither sickness, nor age, nor death can surmount. It is left to his power and pleasure to give admittance to the mysterious meadows, where the mead-cisterns of the lower world are found, and where the most precious of all horns, a wonderful sword, and a splendid arm-ring are kept. Old as the hills, but yet subject to death. Honoured as if he were not a giant, but a divine being. These are the features which together characterise Gudmund, and should be found in his mythological prototype, if there is one. With these peculiar characteristics are united wisdom and wealth.

The answer to the question whether a mythical original of this picture is to be discovered will be given below. But before that we must call attention to some points in the Christian accounts cited in regard to Odainsakur.

Odainsakur is not made identical with the Glittering Plains, but is a separate place on them, or at all events within Gudmund's domain. Thus according to Hervarar saga. The correctness of the statement is confirmed by comparison with Gorm's and Hadding's sagas. The former mentions, as will be remembered, a place which Gudmund does not consider himself authorised to show his guests, although they are permitted to see other mysterious places in the lower world, even the mead-fountains and treasure-chambers. To the unknown place, as to Baldur's subterranean dwelling, leads a golden bridge, which doubtless is to indicate the splendour of the place. The subterranean goddess, who is Hadding's guide in Hades, shows him both the Glittering Fields (loca aprica) and the plains of the dead heroes, but stops with him near a wall, which is not opened for them. The domain surrounded by the wall receives nothing which has suffered death, and its very proximity seems to be enough to keep death at bay (see No. 47).

All the sagas are silent in regard to who those beings are for whom this wonderful enclosed place is intended. Its very name, Acre-of-the-not-dead (Odainsakur), and Field-of-living-men (Jörð lifandi manna), however, makes it clear that it is not intended for the souls of the dead. This Erik Vidforli's saga is also able to state, inasmuch as it makes a definite distinction between Odainsakur and the land of the spirits, between Odainsakur and Paradise. If human or other beings are found within the bulwark of the place, they must have come there as living beings in a physical sense; and when once there, they are protected from perishing, for diseases, age, and death are excluded.

Erik Vidforli and his companion find on their journey on Odainsakur only a single dwelling, a splendid one with two beds. Who the couple are who own this house, and seem to have placed it at the disposal of the travellers, is not stated. But in the night there came a beautiful lad to Erik. The author of the saga has made him an angel, who is on duty on the borders between Odainsakur and Paradise.

The purpose of Odainsakur is not mentioned in Erik Vidforli's saga. There is no intelligible connection between it and the Christian environment given to it by the saga. The ecclesiastical belief knows an earthly Paradise, that which existed in the beginning and was the home of Adam and Eve, but that it is guarded by the angel with the flaming sword, or, as Erik's saga expresses it, it is encircled by a wall of fire. In the lower world the Christian Church knows a Hades and a hell, but the path to them is through the gates of death; physically living persons, persons who have not paid tribute to death, are not found there. In the Christian group of ideas there is no place for Odainsakur. An underground place for physically living people, who are there no longer exposed to aging and death, has nothing to do in the economy of the Church. Was there occasion for it among the ideas of the heathen eschatology? The above-quoted sagas say nothing about the purposes of Odainsakur. Here is therefore a question of importance to our subject, and one that demands an answer.

Later,
-Lyfing

[Lyfing]

I've thought about Snorri a good little bit here lately. Trying to understand a man based on what he has written can be hard thing to do. And, to take that backwards, trying to understand what a man has written based on who he is can be a hard thing to do too.

I happened across a good little writing called ..The Fantastical Theology of Snorri Sturluson : A Reading of the Prologue of Snorra Edda

While, I see plenty of Christian notions in Gylfaginning, I'm starting to think that that is just what the man thought, and that maybe he didn't care about Christianity anyway..that maybe all he cared about was poetry.

The Franks Casket comes to mind when I think about Snorri's Edda. It was made during a time of conversion as well. It has some not-so-native to us motifs on it. But, it is still a very creative thing which gets it's message across. I think when it came to using different motifs we didn't give a shit, we don't these days either. Some of us do, but for the most part there is no prejudice...or preference..as long as it works. That is the difference..it's poetry..not the word of God.

I've read the Bible, and I used to be a Christian. One of the stories ( let's call it a motif though, and relate it to all of this ) that I thought about a bunch was that of the Tower of Babel..that is when God messed our tongues up so we couldn't understand each other and build a tower to Heaven. That story, if I heard it a thousand years ago and I was concerned with poetry I might just relate it to what was going on and include it in the prologue of some book I was writing..

I have spoken of Snorri’s fantastical theology because instead of clarifying the distinction and relationship between untrue tales and the true history of the world, he tends to bring a great deal of confusion, by mixing vocabularies, choosing some episodes and not others, warning against the oblivion of tales that, according to the true faith, should be forgotten, since they not only fail to follow the teaching of the Church, but might also be a threat to the authority of the Church.

From this, the hesitating reader can conclude either that the text is not very effective or that it should be read some other way. I would like to put forth a hypothesis to show that there is unity in the Prologue, that it has a function in the Edda and a strong thematic connection to the whole work; it may even be the key to it.

It has often been noticed how concerned the Prologue is with language, but this is rarely recognised as a central theme of the text 5. Ulrike Strerah-Bolz (especially 1998, also 1991) was the first to highlight the emphasis Snorri places on linguistic matters in the Prologue: ‘Sprache und Religion sind demnach die beiden Elemente, die in der Snorra Edda aufs engeste miteinander verbunden werden’. (1998, 270).

Margaret Clunies Ross (1998) gives the reason why Snorri would link language and religion: the motifs of poetry, its vocabulary and figures are founded on the heathen religion. So ‘if young poets did not understand the story-line of Old Norse myths, they stood no chance of being able to understand and use skaldic kennings and so perpetuate traditional forms of poetic composition. The Edda text, through the intentio scriptoris, thus situates the systematisation of mythic knowledge at a point of impeding cultural loss. Put it another way, the impetus to systematise and to narrate myth came about when the external cultural cohesion necessary for its real transmission was under threat.’ (1998, 11)

The Fantastical Theology of Snorri Sturluson : A Reading of the Prologue of Snorra Edda

...

The old religion is intertwined with the language. The Christian religion, because of its refusal to coexist with any other religion, demands the disappearance of the motifs of the old religion, since there is a risk those who tell and transmit the myths might believe in it to some extent. But with the disappearance of the old heathen religion, a great deal of the poetical resources would also disappear: first, the ability to understand the heiti, then the ability to decipher and create kenningar and to compose.

Each part of Snorra Edda deals with some of the motifs threatened by the general Conversion and the growing oblivion of the traditional culture: Háttatal deals with the rules of composition, of metrics; Skáldskaparmál deals with the system of kenningar and gives lists of heiti; and Gylfaginning is mainly concerned with naming the characters, that is to say heiti, and sometimes explaining both the myth underlying the name and how the phrase that uses the name (orðtak) originated in myth; it helps to understand and remember names and stories.

Snorra Edda deals with memory as much as language, maybe more than with religion: it can be read as the organisation of memory for future generations. As quoted in the passage of Skáldskaparmál, Snorri is concerned about the ability of young skalds to understand the old poems and create new ones. This is why, although they are not to be trusted, they must not be forgotten or proven altogether false. The necessity to avoid proving them false is not religious but linguistic: it is necessary to keep alive these stories in order to preserve the next generation’s access to the heiti, orðtök and kenningar these stories contain and explain.

A name is lost when it ceases to be used; a story when it ceases to be told; a skill when it ceases to be practised; and poems cease to be understood when their motifs have become obscure. Snorra Edda can be read as a strong remedy against the oblivion of names, stories, poems and poetic skill. This is made not only clear but necessary by the first part of the Prologue, if we read it as a text showing what is at stake in the Edda rather than (and not instead of) a text concerned only with Christian orthodoxy and the necessity to prove faithful to it.

The Fantastical Theology of Snorri Sturluson : A Reading of the Prologue of Snorra Edda

I guess what I'm getting at is that while Snorri's Edda is full of Christian notions, he didn't give a shit and that ain't what he was worried about. Those Christian notions have caused a lot of confusion as to what the original heathen notions are. That is a given and stems from whatever he and the rest of them were thinking at the time, but his Edda wasn't about religion as much as it was about language and poetry. That is what I think he saw was most threatened, and he used whatever poetry he saw fit to get his point across. There is, after all, that part of us which is poetic and has nothing to do with history.

Later,
-Lyfing