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Thread: The socio-cultural roots of the Greek economic crisis

  1. #201
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    It's seems then that the problem of Greece is the Greek system. But then again: hard work is not rewarded here either. There are countless people that have been trying to find jobs for years and no one hires them (mainly the elderly and the handicapped) and yet a lot of them keep on trying and trying and trying and even look for work below the value of their education and every time they get their noses blooded up.

    So one could argue that the capitalist system is the problem.
    Quel autre pays ou l’on puisse jouir d’une liberté si entière’
    (In welk ander land kan men genieten van een zo totale vrijheid)
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    René Descartes over de Nederlandse Republiek.



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    Quote Originally Posted by Absinthe View Post
    This says more or less what I am saying: Greeks work very long hours but aren't as productive as other nations who work less hours (for reasons I already stated).

    Now, not being productive enough whereas you work long hours is one thing that needs to be examined by Greeks themselves and how they can improve their business strategies, which suck, basically.

    But being constantly insulted by foreigners who have no idea what we're doing here, is another thing.

    Enough with the lazy candy people, stop sucking on it. It's getting stale. Get your facts straight and stop generalizing. Greeks are a lot of things and some Greeks are lazy, but as a whole Greeks are not a lazy nation, and aren't afraid of work.
    I agree, however this by itself will not be an excuse for very long. Imagine if someone is working very long. If he doesn't work flexibly, hard work will take him nowhere, and in that point I think the West has a good point against Greece. I think the public sector is overinflated and the market itself is based on archaic viepoints. Were others make up goals and try to achieve them within a time frame, we work just to work. I believe many Balkanites will agree to that, even southern Europeans.

  3. #203
    Veteran Member The Lawspeaker's Avatar
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    I found this letter that one of members of a group I am in posted on FB. It's in Dutch but I am sure that Google Translator can translate it:

    BESTE MENEER RUTTE,

    U heeft gister tijdens het VVD congres weer een mooie speech afgestoken. Natuurlijk waren de socialisten weer overal de schuldige van. Natuurlijk. Niemand verwacht dat u ooit iets anders zult gaan beweren.

    Het socialisme is een boemerang, socialisten zijn pessimisten. Liberalen zijn optimisten. Liberalen zijn mensen met initiatief. Het had me hogelijk verbaast als u iets anders had verteld.
    Het laatste wat Nederland moet willen is een linkse regering. De laatste linkse regering was die van Joop den Uyl tussen 1973 en 1977. Jaja...weet u nog wel mensen?
    U weet het vast nog wel meneer Rutte. Toen Joop den Uyl premier werd ging u net naar de eerste klas lagere school. Toen u daar van af kwam hadden we premier Dries van Agt. Enkele jaren later bent u geschiedenis gaan studeren en aangezien u daar zeven jaar over heeft gedaan heeft u werkelijk alle tijd en gelegenheid gehad om u te verdiepen in die geschiedenis.

    De geschiedenis van die vreselijke socialisten. Aan het einde van de regeerperiode van Den Uyl was het begrotingstekort wel 3,5%! En tja...dat vijf jaar later - onder liberaal bewind - dat tekort was opgelopen tot 10%...die pagina was waarschijnlijk door iemand uit uw studieboek gescheurd, dus laat ik dat u niet kwalijk nemen dan.

    Maar goed, dat is geschiedenis. Laten we het even hebben over de huidige tijd. Er is een crisis. Die is al enkele jaren geleden ontstaan. Door het socialisme? Als u dat had kúnnen beweren had u dat ongetwijfeld gedaan. Maar helaas is dat schier onmogelijk. Nee, de crisis is ontstaan door het kapitalisme van het ergste soort: het casinokapitalisme. Het kon niet op allemaal. De bomen groeiden niet tot in de hemel - nee - tot buiten de dampkring. De SP waarschuwde al jaren dat dat allemaal een keer vreselijk fout zou aflopen. Maar gelukkig werd er destijds niet geluisterd naar die vreselijke pessimistische socialisten.
    Nee, we gingen vrolijk en optimistisch op dezelfde voet verder.

    Totdat de zeepbel uiteen barstte.

    En toen: paniek. Wat nu? Niemand die het eigenlijk wist. Nu nog steeds niet. Jarenlang is er geprobeerd om met dezelfde politiek die de crisis heeft veroorzaakt diezelfde crisis op te lossen. Tot op heden met slechts averechts effect. Ook de EU wordt op keiharde manier met de effecten van de crisis geconfronteerd, Nederland niet minder. En nu ligt er een rekening. Een hoge rekening.

    Het nare van rekeningen is: niemand wil die graag betalen. Maar toch zal die rekening betaald moeten worden. De vraag is alleen: wie zal dat betalen?

    In Nederland wonen veel verschillende groepen mensen. Het is niet des SP's om mensen in hokjes in te delen, maar laten we dat toch voor één keer doen. We kunnen de nederlandse bevolking namelijk grofweg in twee groepen indelen en wel:

    A: De mensen die de rekening van de crisis niet kúnnen betalen, en
    B: De mensen die de rekening van de crisis niet wíllen betalen.

    En dat zijn grofweg ook de groepen mensen die aanstaande 12 september van plan zijn om respectievelijk op de SP danwel de VVD te stemmen.
    Vorige week hebben we in de Quote kunnen lezen dat veel vermogenden van plan zijn om naar Zwitserland te emigreren mocht de SP na 12 september de grootste partij geworden zijn. Puur om het feit dat ze geen zin hebben om mee te betalen aan de crisis die veroorzaakt is door hetzelfde casinokapitalisme dat hun de voorspoed gebracht heeft. Kort samenvattend kun je dus zeggen: wel de lusten, niet de lasten.

    Jarenlang zijn nu de winsten geprivatiseerd en de verliezen gecollectiviseerd. Als er één casino bestaat op deze wereld waar gokken met geld zo zou werken werd dat casino vandaag nog bestormd door miljarden mensen. Maar helaas: dat ene casino dat op die manier werkt is geen tastbaar casino met een toegangsdeur. Het enige casino dat op die manier werkt zijn de politieke keuzes van de laatste jaren.
    Hoog tijd om die spelregels nu voor eens en altijd te veranderen. Eerlijk te maken.

    De mensen die de rekening van de crisis niet kúnnen betalen zijn van plan om op de SP te gaan stemmen. De mensen die van plan zijn om op de VVD te gaan stemmen zijn de mensen die die rekening domweg niet WILLEN betalen. Die mensen heb je en die mensen hou je. U vindt dat positieve mensen. Ikzelf vind er weinig positiefs aan om het land te ontvluchten als er voor de eerste keer wordt gevraagd om ook een bijdrage te leveren als het land in de moeilijkheden terecht komt. U krijgt de handen van die mensen op elkaar als u schande spreekt over de 52 procent die ze moeten afdragen van hun salaris. Maar u zwijgt over de zeer gunstige tarieven die ze genieten als het gaat over de heffingen die zo gering zijn dat President Obama over het 'Belastingparadijs Nederland' kan spreken. Daarmee zijn we wereldberoemd geworden.

    Ikzelf heb een andere definitie van positieve mensen. Iemand die op zijn 55e werkloos is en iedere week tegen beter weten in blijft solliciteren, DAT is een positief iemand. De markt - die u zo bejubelt - vindt zo iemand te oud. Dan tóch blijven solliciteren blieft enorm veel optimistisch denken. 500.000 werklozen die blijven solliciteren op de nog geen 120.000 openstaande vacatures. Dát zijn de ware optimisten van deze samenleving.

    Ik vraag me dan hardop af wie er dan eigenlijk het meeste profiteert van wat u noemt 'de geluksmachine van de overheid'. Zijn dat de mensen die inmiddels afhankelijk zijn van de voedselbank? Zijn dat die ouderen die straks misschien hun eigen rollator en hun eigen huishoudelijke hulp moeten betalen? Zijn dat de chronisch zieken die straks gestraft worden voor hun ziek zijn met een nog verder verhoogd eigen risico?

    Of zijn dat de mensen die in de Quote vertellen dat ze als de sodemieter de hielen lichten richting Zwitserland wanneer ze niet langer buiten schot blijven als het gaat om de rekening van de crisis? Ik weet het wel.
    De enige mensen die genot hebben van de 'geluksmachine van de overheid' zijn de mensen die genieten van het belastingparadijs Nederland. De mensen die hypotheekrenteaftrek genieten over hun villa.
    DAT zijn de mensen die de laatste jaren aan het geluksinfuus van de overheid hebben mogen liggen. De mensen die het het minste hard nodig hebben. Dezelfde mensen die gruwelen van het idee om ook hun deel van de lasten te moeten betalen nu het even slecht gaat met de economie. Met andere woorden zijn dat de mensen die u in uw speech 'positief en initiatiefrijk' heeft genoemd.

    De VVD houdt van hardwerkende mensen. Tenminste dat beweert u. Maar waar was de VVD toen duizenden hardwerkende schoonmakers opkwamen voor hun rechten? Nergens. Behalve dat de mensen van uw jongerenafdeling een actieposter van diezelfde hardwerkende schoonmakers hebben bewerkt tot de boodschap dat ze van hun luie gat af moesten komen en aan het werk moesten gaan.
    DAT is hoe de VVD omgaat met echt hardwerkende mensen.

    De VVD houdt helemáál niet van hardwerkende mensen. De VVD houdt slechts van RENDABELE mensen. De VVD houdt niet van positieve mensen. De VVD houdt slechts van mensen met een zeer positief banksaldo. Op het moment dat en hardwerkende nederlander zijn baan - of nog erger: zijn gezondheid - verliest, degradeert zo iemand in de ogen van de VVD ogenblikkelijk van prima hardwerkende nederlander tot onrendabele parasiet. Voor die mensen heeft de VVD slechts één boodschap : 'jammer joh, zoek het zelf maar uit'.

    Het zijn DIE mensen wiens ogen open zijn gegaan de laatste jaren meneer Rutte die nu op de SP willen gaan stemmen. Hardwerkende positieve mensen die iets willen maken van hun leven. Alsmede intelligente jongeren die graag willen gaan studeren maar dat niet meer aandurven vanwege de langstudeerboete die uw partij erdoor wil drukken. Het zijn al die positieve initiatiefrijke mensen die het negativisme van de VVD inmiddels spuugzat geworden zijn. Die groep is hard groeiende. Dat is niet onze schuld, maar uw keuze geweest.

    Wees dapper en accepteer de gevolgen van die keuzes. En verschuil u niet langer achter leugens. Dat is geen positieve grondhouding.
    Ik dank u.

    Hoogachtend,


    (his name)
    Quel autre pays ou l’on puisse jouir d’une liberté si entière’
    (In welk ander land kan men genieten van een zo totale vrijheid)
    ------------------------------------------------------

    René Descartes over de Nederlandse Republiek.



  4. #204
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    Quote Originally Posted by Drawing-live View Post
    ^ you make a good point absinthe.
    Same thing in albania i guess, the most educated the most qualified lose to someone with fake diploma that never even left albania once or lived abroad, in so many job positions. I dont live there but i had friends complain about this.
    Exactly. I've had this happening in my workplaces so often. In fact I was sacked from my last job after I gave my heart and soul in it and helped in building it from scratch, because my employer finally favored a friend of his over me, who was nobody to him.

    In general this is the sort of thing that happens in Greece, especially nowadays: the least educated and experienced you are, the most likely you will get a job.

    Because qualified workers will want their rights to be respected, whereas an unqualified 20 year old will not mind working under really lax and exploitative conditions, until they can move on to a better job.

    And there is the other thing in Greece. If you are female and in your early 30s, you're raising a red flag to your potential employers. Because they think that once they hire you, you're gonna spurt out half a dozen of children from one day to the next, and then demand maternity leave and child benefits
    Which is far from the truth, and really unfair and discriminating a mentality, unfortunately.

  5. #205
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    Ah yes, this phenomenon is known as "I have an uncle from Koroni"

    Which means that if you know the right people, you will get the job first even before Einstein.

    Seriously, this thing that Absinthe is experiencing would work perfectly in a free market economy, hiring an unqualified worker. It's called apprenticeship. But what do you make of that when the HUGE public sector is lurking in your wereabouts?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Anusiya View Post
    I agree, however this by itself will not be an excuse for very long. Imagine if someone is working very long. If he doesn't work flexibly, hard work will take him nowhere, and in that point I think the West has a good point against Greece. I think the public sector is overinflated and the market itself is based on archaic viepoints. Were others make up goals and try to achieve them within a time frame, we work just to work. I believe many Balkanites will agree to that, even southern Europeans.
    Yes, that is extremely accurate: just work to work.

    It really blows my mind, seeing how most Greek employers I've worked with are dealing with this issue.

    It's like they have this complex (they do, actually) by which, because they are managers, they like to make their employers run around all day without purpose, keep them in the company until night time, without ever wondering if they are doing anything productive.

    As a result, both parties suffer: the workers, who are exhausted without any actual good use in their exhaustion, and the company, which suffers from lack of specific goals and purpose.

    It's like every hillbilly idiot has managed to scrape up some money and built a company, having no idea whatsoever on how to manage it.

    And then he hires people solely for the purpose of exploiting and torturing them, so that he satisfies his insatiable inferiority complex and that he boasts to his friends that "I have an X number of employees who run around all day and do whatever I tell them to do".

    Almost every work I've had as an employee was like this, with some very minor exceptions.

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    This is one of the reasons that I am strongly against the compulsory army service. It leaves some really bad marks on the person's characters and predisposes him for one hell of a ride. Thank you for identifying that it's the employer's problem. There are numerous times that I had argued with employers when proposing a more practical alternative, and in the end the same old route with the same results.

    Needless to say that such type of employers have spent their August days in a nice island having full vacations, while owing millions of Euros to the Employment Service and Tax Revenue Authority, while some
    <--"others" sat on the icecream...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Anusiya View Post
    This is one of the reasons that I am strongly against the compulsory amry service. It leaves some really bad marks on the person's characters and predisposes him for one hell of a ride. Thank you for identifying that it's the employer's problem. There are numerous times that I had argued with employers when proposing a more practical alternative, and in the end the same old route with the same results.
    Exactly, it is like the "kapsoni" practice is the agreeable management strategy they use.

    It seems most of them are on a power trip and they can't take advice from anyone else, because they should know better at all times. I have innumerable such horror stories to tell You know, sometimes, a younger, fresher eye on the strategy would be the way to go, but they prefer to stick to their monolithic and obsolete ways because "they're the bosses".

    This is, like, an archetypal case of mismanagement.

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    Also another thing, and I am curious if it has happened to you, or any other Greeks reading here

    Imagine you work in a small business with one manager, one assistant manager, and 5 or 6 employees tops.

    Now, the manager (who does the funding of the company too) is a spoilt, nouveau-riche brat who's born with a silver spoon in his mouth and has never worked a real job in his life.

    So he has decided to put his money to use by creating a company by means of which he can flaunt to his other posh friends that "he is a hard working man" and "he runs his own company" and "makes his living" instead of just sitting on his trust funds.

    So he starts making all kinds of ridiculous, over the top expenses.... I mean, the most ridiculous things, really...

    Let's say we need some glasses for the guests to drink water, and instead of going to IKEA, let's say, and buying a dozen of perfectly fine glasses for 3euros, he goes to the most expensive home appliances store there is in Athens, and buys glasses that cost, like, 15 euros a piece....

    Or say, he buys equipment for a conference room worth some 20,000 euros, knowing that this conference room ain't going to be used more than once or twice a year...

    Or he throws an opening party, invites some thousands of people (out of which less than 500 actually show up) and pays some 5-6,000 euros for the catering and decorations, and after that there is a ridiculous amount of food left over which goes bad and should be thrown to the garbage...

    Then, a couple of months later, when he realizes he has sunken his own ship with his frivolous expenditure, he decides it's time to "cut back on expenses", and so he sacks half of his staff (essentially leaving the other half doing their jobs too) and cuts back on the salaries of the remaining staff...

    How much win is in that?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Absinthe View Post
    Also another thing, and I am curious if it has happened to you, or any other Greeks reading here

    Imagine you work in a small business with one manager, one assistant manager, and 5 or 6 employees tops.

    Now, the manager (who does the funding of the company too) is a spoilt, nouveau-riche brat who's born with a silver spoon in his mouth and has never worked a real job in his life.

    So he has decided to put his money to use by creating a company by means of which he can flaunt to his other posh friends that "he is a hard working man" and "he runs his own company" and "makes his living" instead of just sitting on his trust funds.

    So he starts making all kinds of ridiculous, over the top expenses.... I mean, the most ridiculous things, really...

    Let's say we need some glasses for the guests to drink water, and instead of going to IKEA, let's say, and buying a dozen of perfectly fine glasses for 3euros, he goes to the most expensive home appliances store there is in Athens, and buys glasses that cost, like, 15 euros a piece....

    Or say, he buys equipment for a conference room worth some 20,000 euros, knowing that this conference room ain't going to be used more than once or twice a year...

    Or he throws an opening party, invites some thousands of people (out of which less than 500 actually show up) and pays some 5-6,000 euros for the catering and decorations, and after that there is a ridiculous amount of food left over which goes bad and should be thrown to the garbage...

    Then, a couple of months later, when he realizes he has sunken his own ship with his frivolous expenditure, he decides it's time to "cut back on expenses", and so he sacks half of his staff (essentially leaving the other half doing their jobs too) and cuts back on the salaries of the remaining staff...

    How much win is in that?
    The thing is that someone will be there to save him from the debt. He KNOWS he will get away with it cheaply. He simply declares bankruptcy and ventures on something else. Like a f*in' vulture.

    I hate him, for all he stands for, but mostly because he is right...but we need him...badly

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