Page 3 of 21 FirstFirst 123456713 ... LastLast
Results 21 to 30 of 210

Thread: The socio-cultural roots of the Greek economic crisis

  1. #21
    Is riding XX. Mad? Arbėrori's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2012
    Location
    Moscow Hoescow
    Meta-Ethnicity
    Slovansko đubre
    Ethnicity
    Srbijanac
    Ancestry
    Srpski Spartanac
    Country
    Serbia
    Politics
    Jebo sam Cecu
    Religion
    Pravosljavac
    Gender
    Posts
    11,949

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Solin View Post
    But I thought that most of Greeks are Albanians in denial
    100 000 Arvanites does not change anything
    However it says that they were regarded as ethnically distinct in the 19th century but I understand what you are trying to say.
    (Anyway Albanians and Greeks are genetically very similar)
    100 000 Arvanites? There are no reliable figures about the number of Arvanites in Greece today (no official data exist for ethnicity in Greece), but majority are assimilated & are the most noble of Greeks, they have preserved their culture very well (Besa for ex.), but Arvanitika is becoming endangered & is even pressured not to be spoken.

    In 1916 on the other hand, the majority of ''Greek'' soldiers spoke it:

    In the course of the 20th century, it became customary to use only Αλβανοί for the people of Albania, and only Αρβανίτες for the ''Greek''-Arvanites, thus stressing the national separation between the two groups.

    Let us not speak of the Vlachs (most probably latinized proto-Albanians/natives) & Slavs inhabiting Greece...

    Many Arbėreshė families are of ''Arvanite'' descent & they clearly identify as Albanians, I wonder why?
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arb%C3%ABresh%C3%AB_people

  2. #22
    Veteran Member Solin's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Ethnicity
    -
    Country
    Cyprus
    Gender
    Posts
    3,912

    Default

    Internet historians hehe

  3. #23
    Is riding XX. Mad? Arbėrori's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2012
    Location
    Moscow Hoescow
    Meta-Ethnicity
    Slovansko đubre
    Ethnicity
    Srbijanac
    Ancestry
    Srpski Spartanac
    Country
    Serbia
    Politics
    Jebo sam Cecu
    Religion
    Pravosljavac
    Gender
    Posts
    11,949

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Solin View Post
    I know. You are constantly saying that modern Albanians are the closest thing to the ancient Greeks. I was just trolling
    Who knows, we might be. The influx of non-Greek people was huge in Greece, as long as you were Christian Orthodox, you were Greek, simple as that.

    Look at what Michael Kimmelman published for the New York Times on June 23rd, 2009:
    Athens — Not long before the new Acropolis Museum opened last weekend, the writer Christopher Hitchens hailed in this newspaper what he called the death of an argument.

    Britain used to say that Athens had no adequate place to put the Elgin Marbles, the more than half of the Parthenon frieze, metopes and pediments that Lord Elgin spirited off when he was ambassador to the Ottoman Empire two centuries ago. Since 1816 they have been prizes of the British Museum. Meanwhile, Greeks had to make do with the leftovers, housed in a ramshackle museum built in 1874.

    So the new museum that Bernard Tschumi, the Swiss-born architect, has devised near the base of the Acropolis is a $200 million, 226,000-square-foot, state-of-the-art rebuttal to Britain’s argument.

    From certain angles it has all the charm and discretion of the Port Authority terminal in Manhattan. Neighbors have been complaining all the way to the bank, housing values having shot up because of it.

    Inside, however, it is light and airy, and the collection is a miracle. Weathered originals from the Parthenon frieze, the ones Elgin left behind, are combined with plaster casts of what’s in London to fill the sun-drenched top floor of the museum, angled to mirror the Parthenon, which gleams through wraparound windows. The clash between originals and copies makes a not-subtle pitch for the return of the marbles. Greece’s culture minister, Antonis Samaras, on the occasion of the opening last week, said what Greek officials have been saying for decades: that the Parthenon sculptures, broken up, are like a family portrait with “loved ones missing.” Mr. Samaras’s boss, Greece’s president, Karolos Papoulias, spoke less metaphorically: “It’s time to heal the wounds of the monument with the return of the marbles which belong to it.”

    Don’t bet the British will agree.

    Inside the museum visitors ascend as if up the slope of the Acropolis via a glass ramp that reveals, underfoot, ancient remains excavated during the building’s construction. (They will eventually be opened to the public.) It’s a nice touch. On the second floor archaic and early classical statues mill about a big gallery like a crowd in an agora, a curatorial and architectural whimsy that risks visitors missing works like the “Kritios Boy,” which nearly hides to one side.

    As for the caryatids from the Erechtheion and the sculptural remains of the Temple of Athena Nike, including the sexy “Sandal Binder,” works of textbook import, they look a bit stranded on a balcony and in a passageway because the museum, save for the Parthenon floor, doesn’t have regular spaces. Free circulation puts everything on equal footing (this is the birthplace of democracy, after all), but the flip side of this layout is the failure to make priorities clear, which art museums exist to do.

    That said, Athens needs new modern landmarks. The city is choked by slapdash buildings thrown up after the junta fell during the early 1970s. Public monuments ape ancient palaces, badly. Nikos Dimou, a prominent writer here, recalled that when a show of the British modern sculptor Henry Moore arrived years ago: “People complained about bringing monstrous forms to the land of beauty. Ninety percent of cultured Greeks even today live with this classical sensibility.”

    A generation or two of well-traveled, environmentally conscious, globally wired Greeks has since come of age, and the Elgin Marbles debate now represents a kind of luxury that Greece has earned. It began with the actress Melina Mercouri during the 1980s, her publicity campaign coinciding with the rise of a populist leader, Andreas Papandreou, whose slogan was “Greece for the Greeks.” It has evolved into a less glamorous tangle of diplomatic and legal maneuverings, with Greece lately recovering some 25 antiquities from various countries, including some additional stray fragments from the Parthenon.

    “This issue unifies us,” Dimitris Pandermalis, the Acropolis Museum’s director, said the other day, never mind that surveys show how few of them actually bother to visit the Acropolis past grade school.

    As to whether Elgin had legal authority to remove the marbles, the Ottomans being the ruling power, as the British maintain, Mr. Pandermalis paused. “The problem is not legal,” he decided. “It’s ethical and cultural.” George Voulgarakis, a former culture minister, wasn’t so circumspect when asked the same question. He said, “It’s like saying the Nazis were justified in plundering priceless works of art during the Second World War.”

    “I understand what museums fear,” Mr. Voulgarakis added. “They think everything will have to go back if the marbles do. But the Acropolis is special.”

    That’s what the Greeks have insisted for years when arguing why the marbles belong to Greece, but they also say the marbles belong to the world when pointing out why they don’t belong to the British. The marbles in fact belonged to the Parthenon, a building here and nowhere else, the best argument for repatriation, except the idea now is not to reattach them where they came from but to move them from one museum to another, from the British Museum to the new Acropolis Museum, albeit next door — a different matter, if not to the Greeks.

    “It’s the fault of a German,” Mr. Dimou said about Greek pride in this cause. He was referring to Johann Winckelmann, the 18th-century German art historian whose vision of an ancient Greece “populated by beautiful, tall, blond, wise people, representing perfection,” as Mr. Dimou put it, was in a sense imposed on the country to shape modern Greek identity.

    “We used to speak Albanian and call ourselves Romans, but then Winckelmann, Goethe, Victor Hugo, Delacroix, they all told us, ‘No, you are Hellenes, direct descendants of Plato and Socrates,’ and that did it. If a small, poor nation has such a burden put on its shoulders, it will never recover

    This myth required excavators on the Acropolis during the 19th century to erase Ottoman traces and purify the site as the crucible o[I]f classicism. The Erechtheion had been a harem, the Parthenon a mosque. “But Greek archaeology has always been a kind of fantasy,” Antonis Liakos, a leading Greek historian, noted the other day. The repatriation argument, relying on claims of historical integrity, itself distorts history.

    For their part, the British also point out that the marbles’ presence in London across two centuries now has its own perch on history, having influenced neo-Classicism and Philhellenism around the globe. That’s true, and it’s not incidental that the best editions of ancient Greek texts are published by British, French, Americans and Germans, not Greeks. But imperialism isn’t an endearing argument.

    So both sides, in different ways, stand on shaky ground. Ownership remains the main stumbling block. When Britain offered a three-month loan of the marbles to the Acropolis Museum last week on condition that Greece recognizes Britain’s ownership, Mr. Samaras swiftly countered that Britain could borrow any masterpiece it wished from Greece if it relinquished ownership of the Parthenon sculptures. But a loan was out.

    Pity. Asked whether the two sides might ever negotiate a way to share the marbles, Mr. Samaras shook his head. “No Greek can sign up for that,” he said.

    Elsewhere, museums have begun collaborating, pooling resources, bending old rules. The British Museum, the Metropolitan Museum of Art, the Louvre and other great public collectors of antiquity have good reason to fear a slippery slope if the marbles ever do go back, never mind what the Greeks say.

    At the same time the Acropolis Museum plays straight to the heart, sailing past ownership issues into the foggy ether of a different kind of truth. It’s the nobler, easier route.

    Looting antiquities obviously can’t be tolerated. Elgin operated centuries ago in a different climate. The whole conversation needs to be reframed. As Mr. Dimou asked, “If they were returned, would Greeks be wiser, better? Other objects of incredible importance are scattered around Greece and no one visits them.” Mr. Liakos put it another way: “It’s very Greek to ask the question. Who owns history? It’s part of our nationalist argument. The Acropolis is our trademark. But the energy spent on antiquity drains from modern creativity.”

    The new museum finally casts Melina Mercouri’s old argument in concrete.

    The opportunity is there.
    https://myaccount.nytimes.com/auth/l...ROR=SHOW_ERROR

    Melina Mercouri's family was also of Arvanite descent & she was aware of that, as attested by Aristidh Kola, the former leader of the ''Marko Bocari'' Arvanite League.

    As long as the leading Greek authorities in Athens admit it, then I'm okay with that.

  4. #24
    Is riding XX. Mad? Arbėrori's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2012
    Location
    Moscow Hoescow
    Meta-Ethnicity
    Slovansko đubre
    Ethnicity
    Srbijanac
    Ancestry
    Srpski Spartanac
    Country
    Serbia
    Politics
    Jebo sam Cecu
    Religion
    Pravosljavac
    Gender
    Posts
    11,949

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Solin View Post
    Internet historians hehe
    Not really, I just post other people's attested articles, testimonials & etc., which in this case are Greek.

  5. #25
    I'm back, angrier than ever Archduke's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2012
    Location
    Eastern Rumelia
    Meta-Ethnicity
    Bulgaric
    Ethnicity
    Bulgarian
    Country
    Bulgaria
    Religion
    Catholic
    Gender
    Posts
    3,247

    Default

    Many Greeks also mixed with Slavs (Bulgarians).

  6. #26
    GOD OF GREEKS dralos's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Location
    area 51
    Meta-Ethnicity
    dardanian
    Ethnicity
    albanian
    Ancestry
    trolls who mixed with illyrian gods and and then came to mix with bardhyll an illyrian king and so o
    Country
    Albania
    Politics
    no more pussies
    Religion
    chickz want me
    Age
    99
    Gender
    Posts
    11,466

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Armani View Post
    Many Greeks also mixed with Slavs (Bulgarians).
    true like those in northgreece
    the european looking greeks are majority mixed,they're of albanian origine or bulgarian
    other greeks are just anatolian refugess
    Quote Originally Posted by Slavic Blood View Post
    The gypsy looks to have some Serb admixture. Also preserving your Serbdom and bettering Serbia's birthrate I pick her.
    Quote Originally Posted by rashka View Post
    Typical of homely and ugly mongrel Albanians (Ushtari and Metalwarrior now called Duskfall who calls himself a nordid-aryan in his profile) coming on to the Serbian forum to visually absorb Serbian handsomeness.


    Quote Originally Posted by Pigeon View Post
    That's because Albos here got the moniez

  7. #27
    Is riding XX. Mad? Arbėrori's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2012
    Location
    Moscow Hoescow
    Meta-Ethnicity
    Slovansko đubre
    Ethnicity
    Srbijanac
    Ancestry
    Srpski Spartanac
    Country
    Serbia
    Politics
    Jebo sam Cecu
    Religion
    Pravosljavac
    Gender
    Posts
    11,949

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Armani View Post
    Many Greeks also mixed with Slavs (Bulgarians).
    I have a double treat for you bro,
    from ''Sfaira" dated September 1st, 1959:


    This is the oath the Aeagean ''Macedonians'' took:
    I do promise before God, the people, and the official state authorities, that from this day on I shall cease to speak the Slav dialect which gives misunderstandings to the enemies of our country - the Bulgarians - and that I will speak always and everywhere the official language of our fatherland – the Greek language, in which the Holy Gospel is written.

  8. #28
    Veteran Member Solin's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Ethnicity
    -
    Country
    Cyprus
    Gender
    Posts
    3,912

    Default

    Look
    Genetically Greeks and Albanians are very similar which is a logical thing since you are neighboring countries for centuries ( Illyrians and Greeks ).
    Claiming that Greeks have foreign influence like Turkish and Armenian from an Albanian is a funny thing in this case.
    Albanians are claiming a lot stuff. Seems that everyone were Albanians
    If you claim that you were Illyrians you can not claim that ancient Greeks were Albanians ( or Illyrians or anything else ) too having genetic similarity in picture too.
    Therefore all your paper tracking can not change that.

    However when I see modern Greeks despite its economic flaws it has a nice tradition of science and people like John Argyris ( one of creators of Finite Element Method ), Dimitri Nanopoulos ( the fourth most cited physicist of all times ), Nicholas Metropolis, Demetrios Christodoulou ( who's ideas advanced synchotron and developed strong focusing principles which advanced particle accelerators), Ioannis Liritzis, Constantin Caratheodory....unlike Albanians.

    So when I take all this factors over Internet historians it is quite evident who is Greek and who is not.

  9. #29
    I'm back, angrier than ever Archduke's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2012
    Location
    Eastern Rumelia
    Meta-Ethnicity
    Bulgaric
    Ethnicity
    Bulgarian
    Country
    Bulgaria
    Religion
    Catholic
    Gender
    Posts
    3,247

    Default

    ^Greece was multiethnic country after the Balkan wars, just like Serbia.

    Just guess what happened to the non-greeks.

  10. #30
    Is riding XX. Mad? Arbėrori's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2012
    Location
    Moscow Hoescow
    Meta-Ethnicity
    Slovansko đubre
    Ethnicity
    Srbijanac
    Ancestry
    Srpski Spartanac
    Country
    Serbia
    Politics
    Jebo sam Cecu
    Religion
    Pravosljavac
    Gender
    Posts
    11,949

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Solin View Post
    Look
    Genetically Greeks and Albanians are very similar which is a logical thing since you are neighboring countries for centuries ( Illyrians and Greeks ).
    Claiming that Greeks have foreign influence like Turkish and Armenian from an Albanian is a funny thing in this case.
    Albanians are claiming a lot stuff. Seems that everyone were Albanians
    If you claim that you were Illyrians you can not claim that ancient Greeks were Albanians ( or Illyrians or anything else ) too having genetic similarity in picture too.
    Therefore all your paper tracking can not change that.

    However when I see modern Greeks despite its economic flaws it has a nice tradition of science and people like John Argyris ( one of creators of Finite Element Method ), Dimitri Nanopoulos ( the fourth most cited physicist of all times ), Nicholas Metropolis, Demetrios Christodoulou ( who's ideas advanced synchotron and developed strong focusing principles which advanced particle accelerators), Ioannis Liritzis, Constantin Caratheodory....unlike Albanians.

    So when I take all this factors over an Internet historians it is quite evident who is Greek and who is not.
    It is well known that Ottoman Turks left very few genetic traces in the Balkans & those were not in Albanian lands, unless you count some parts of Greece (well-attested Karamanlides) & the Armenian ones were unexisting aswell. The people that mixed were the elites & they left for Turkey, with a large influx of non-mixed people (the Balkan diaspora there is very prominent).

    I did not claim that the Ancient Greeks were Albanian, so please update your reading capabilities. I said that the modern ones are heavily mixed & it is a well attested fact, by Greek historians themselves.

    There are also some Croatians of Arbanasi descent, is that why you're mad?

    God knows if they all were Greek, my friend, if it wasn't for the ones that liberated Greece, they would've probably been Christian & Turkish speaking nowadays. I don't care about your personal opinion, it's irrelevant, but facts are not.

Page 3 of 21 FirstFirst 123456713 ... LastLast

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Similar Threads

  1. Replies: 0
    Last Post: 10-30-2011, 05:11 AM
  2. Replies: 73
    Last Post: 06-03-2011, 11:40 PM
  3. Economic Crisis: Causes and Cures
    By European blood in forum Economics
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 05-29-2011, 10:59 PM
  4. Cable: UK Economic crisis very bad
    By Loki in forum Economics
    Replies: 14
    Last Post: 05-22-2011, 12:02 PM
  5. Bulgaria to Overcome Economic Crisis in 9 Months
    By Thraex in forum News Articles
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 02-26-2010, 10:22 PM

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •