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Thread: Religion without faith

  1. #1
    the Lacedaemonian Lysander's Avatar
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    Default Religion without faith

    Firstly I'd like to make sure for any real neo-pagans that this post is not intended as an insult.

    And now onto my point:

    What exactly is neo-paganism? The whole concept is flawed. The word "neo" implies that it is something new which is strange when the whole point with it is as far as I can see, to connect with the pre-Christian roots of Europe.

    I watched a documentary about Icelandic Asatruers which was interesting until one of the priests, shamans or what you call your holy men was confronted about his religion and he answered
    - All other religions are fake too. The difference is, we know ours is. Haha....

    Now that is a point of view that I just can't understand. The difference Mister is that we don't believe that ours is fake at all. What purpose does religion fill without faith?
    It seems to me that these people just wanted an excuse to go out and live role-play Dungeons & Dragons as adults.
    Again, let me stress that if there are any REAL neo-pagans out there you should not be insulted by this.

    This is the same problem that I have with the otherwise great French writer de Benoist. In his book "On Being a Pagan" he criticizes Christianity and compares it to the old European religions. While he reaches some interesting conclusion I have one overall problem with him. He sees religion as a philosophical thing as opposed to a spiritual thing.
    This is where I have to agree with the great traditionalist Julius Evola to whom religion is spiritual first and philosophical second.

    Overall I am positive to religion and it is my firm belief that that a nation devoid of religion will eventually decline into nothingness. Nowadays money is religion and everyone can see that the west is in decline.

    So to sum it up, my question is what purpose does neo-paganism serve for you who claim to be pagans but are really sceptics, agnostics or even atheists?
    You claim to be neo-pagans to show your nationalism? Ridiculous.

    And yet again, I have no problem with neo-pagans who actually believe in the spirituality of their religion. I'm just deeply vexed by "adult children".

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    It is such a funny coincidence, that the day before yesterday I had an extensive talk with a theologist working a PhD thesis on the Byzantium...

    It somehow came up in the discussion that in every Byzantine text that was referring to the notion of "ανεξιθρησκεία" (religious freedom), the Christian "fathers" did not define it in the same way as we perceive it today, i.e. respecting different religions and allowing them to coexist, but as "ανεξιθρησκεία means that you must go to every end to convince the other person that his religious views are wrong, and show them to the right path" (roughly translated).

    It seems to be what every christian has been doing since the dawn of their religion, and it seems to be what you are trying to do now with this thread.

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    the Lacedaemonian Lysander's Avatar
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    Well, one must say that Byzantium was easy going when spreading Christianity compared to our European brothers who pretty much would cut your head off if you didn't convert, especially among the Balts who resisted well into the 11th century .

    In any case you have misunderstood the purpose of my post. I don't have some king of a secret agenda to convert people on this board to Christianity. It is true that Jesus said "spread the gospel" which is why Christians always have been trying to convert people one way or the other. But there are better ways to do it than surfing the web.
    I am NOT a missionary.

    My question remains.

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    I did not call you a missionary, I merely pointed out the fact that almost every Christian I have met in my life is quick on judging and belittling other faiths, and I thus was wondering about the purpose of this thread.

    I believe that no single soul on this board defines oneself as "neo-pagan" but rather as following their ethnic religion, but anyway, I am not a pagan myself so I better let others speak for themselves

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    the Lacedaemonian Lysander's Avatar
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    Ah I see... That is a shame. Boards of this sort usually attract neo-pagans, I would have very much liked an answer from one of their stock.

    In any case, I am not quick to judge at all. Just as I pointed out in the initial post I have no problem with neo-pagans who actually believe in the spirituality of their religion.
    But when it comes to the live role-players one must hesitate a moment and really think about what they are doing.

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    Are you referring to Wiccans, by any chance?

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    Inactive Account Loddfafner's Avatar
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    As a heathen who does not believe in the literal truth of the Voluspa, I see it partly as a matter of affiliation, of homage to my heritage, and as a vocabulary for maintaining a spiritual relationship with the cycles of nature.

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    O frabjous day! callooh callay!! Heimmacht's Avatar
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    Most Heathens don't take metaphors literally, as opposed to what you refer to as neo-pagans. Back in the old days of our forefathers, they didnt have the understanding we have nowadays.

    That doesnt make it more or less our ethnic believe.
    Last edited by Heimmacht; 07-16-2009 at 02:11 PM.

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    I find the whole term "neo-pagan" to indeed be pretty ridiculous, but I find the term to be mostly used by Wiccans and other hippies.

    I agree pretty much with Heimmacht and Loddfaffner on what heathendom should be about.
    When good men are the rulers and the program-makers for a society, the population as a whole will reflect this, and people with no
    originality or moral sense of direction of their own will nevertheless fervently support the highest aims of their society. But when evil
    men rule, as has been the case in the Western World for many years now, most of the population will wallow happily in degeneracy of the worst
    kind and will self-righteously parrot every filthy and destructive idea that they have been taught.

  10. #10
    Malarxist-Bidenist
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    I have written extensively on this topic, but I will write yet another post because I can't give people any room to "not have a clue." (Character flaw? ) (No offense to you personally, I'm referring to people in general.)

    I do not consider myself a "neo-pagan." I am a pagan. I think the use of the prefix neo- is ridiculous. My paganism however is not "folkish" like many people's on this board. I follow the post-classical Monism of the Alexandrian era i.e. the Hellenistic period forward. Apuleius tells us of an apparition of the goddess Isis, where she tells him, 'I have many forms, and many names, I am all that exists, has existed, and will be... I am Juno, I am Venus at Paphos, I am Ephesian Diana... The Egyptians call me by my true name, Queen Isis.'

    Monism believes that there is One divine Essence with various manifestations, which are the gods and goddesses. Such a doctrine was taught in Egypt, and was popular in the Hellenistic era and in the Roman empire. The doctrine survives today in Hinduism. This doctrine was linked to the mystery cults of later antiquity.

    One must understand, Catholicism itself is a mystery cult. A member is instructed through catechism and when all requirements are fulfilled they are initiated into the Eucharist. Through the sacraments of the Catholic church, they (or so the story goes) attain salvation. Now the popes claim their origin in St. Peter, but the title Pontifex Maximus was a title held by the leader of the pagan colleges in Rome. The name means "the greatest bridge (between god(s) and men.) Julius Caesar once held the title Pontifex Maximus in ancient times.

    Catholicism blended Christianity with pagan customs, and converted gods into local saints. They gave the Blessed Virgin Mary many epithets which were used for pagan goddesses, i.e. Stella Maris, Regina Caeli, Seat of Wisdom etc. Isis' name in Egypt was Aset which means "She of the Throne", She was the throne on which Horus and the pharaoh sat. Imagery of Isis and Horus was an influence on the image of the Madonna and Jesus.

    It is understandable that there was a blending of pagan themes in Christianity. Jesus' hebrew name was Yahushua which was Hellenized to Iesous. This made the transition easier, and people who convert to a new faith often bring elements of their old religion to the new one. Pagan holidays were made Christian. Many of the early churches dedicated to Mary were located in Ephesus where the goddess Artemis was worshipped. Mary shrines were built above many goddess shrines. The image of Jesus was syncretized with dying and resurrecting gods.

    I was once Catholic, but I realized Catholicism was a blending of Christianity with mediterranean paganism and I thought: "I am drawn to the pagan elements, but the original biblical teachings have no appeal to me whatsoever." So I became pagan. I do not care about some hijacked Jewish carpenter and his dusty old desert religion. The pagans were doing just fine before the stifling ideology of Christianity came along.

    I have always been interested in the cult (I use the word in its antique sense) of the Blessed Virgin Mary. To me, she is a composite figure of various mediterranean goddesses, and she embodies the feminine principle (which if you notice is non-existent in dusty old Protestantism.) I find it interesting that one of the epithets of the BVM is Porta Caeli "Gate of Heaven", and she is depicted pointing toward her son, as she shows the way. There is an old medieval Portuguese song which goes "Santa Maria maestra nos do dia" (Holy Mary show us the way to God.)

    If not for her, I would have absolutely no interest scholarly or otherwise in Christianity. The feminine is dynamic, and without Mary, where would the church be? Mary is a vessel not only of the Divine, but as a way for people to be lifted upwards. Goethe said "The Eternal Feminine drives us ever heavenward." This is true, which is why the Church has so effectively used the figure of Mary to gain converts, and to advance political ends. Indeed, as it has been said "Mary is the Church." People are most attracted to a maternal archetype and they are willing to fight and die in the cause of the feminine, and of their Mother. To this day, even though I am not Catholic, I study her as through her, much can be learned about our ancient past.

    I recognize however, that the image of the Great Mother and the Dying-Resurrecting god pre-date Christianity. Because of this, I go to the source which is that ancient monistic religion before it was blended with Christianity.

    The original Stella Maris, Threnus Sapientiae, and Regina Caeli was Isis and other goddesses identified with Her. The original Good Shepherd was Dionysus, the original Lord of Ages was Mithras. I call the gods by their original names. I am no longer fooled by the superficial Judeo-Christian veneer, I have torn away the surface, and have moved closer to piercing the veil of Isis (although She tells us in Apuleius that no mortal has ever achieved it.) I am resolute in my attempt no matter how ill-fated (As Odin knows he must fall at Ragnarok, but remains steadfast nonetheless.)

    Ave Magna Mater, Domina Mundi, Isidis Matris, macte esto.


    Only butthurted clowns minuses my posts. -- Лиссиы

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