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Thread: Religion without faith

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lysander View Post
    So to sum it up, my question is what purpose does neo-paganism serve for you who claim to be pagans but are really sceptics, agnostics or even atheists?
    In my opinion, Heathenry's utility is striking. The ancestral veneration at the root of Heathenry promotes ethnic preservation more so than any other type of religion. Heathenry's pneumatology promotes strong family bonds in a way that Christianity is incapable of doing. Heathen ethics promote mental heath by focusing on living a good life in this world, rather than devoting our lives to preparation for the afterlife. The pseudo-pantheism of Heathenry also encourages us to have a healthier relationship with nature than does the dominionism of Christianity. And the list goes on and on...

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    There are probably no neo-pagans here, as there probably are none on most nationalist or European boards. Wiccans and their ilk are usually quite liberal and universalist. You have set up a straw man in order to knock it down.

    There are, however, Pagan reconstructionists. European Paganism is an integral part of our European heritage, one unifected by Asian Abrahamitic beliefs. Within our number are those who truly believe and those who respect and participate in our faith and probably everything in between.

    There is nothing particularly strange about that. There are many people who celebrate Christmas and yet who do not believe in Jesus as anything more than a fairy tale.
    Last edited by Angantyr; 07-17-2009 at 03:35 AM.
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    the Lacedaemonian Lysander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Absinthe View Post
    Are you referring to Wiccans, by any chance?
    I don't even know what a Wiccan is.

    Quote Originally Posted by Loddfafner View Post
    As a heathen who does not believe in the literal truth of the Voluspa, I see it partly as a matter of affiliation, of homage to my heritage, and as a vocabulary for maintaining a spiritual relationship with the cycles of nature.
    That's exactly what I like to call ethnic religion which serves no purpose at all. "I am Germanic and hence I'd like to believe in Thor, Freya etc".
    That is not heathenism nor paganism or whatever ism you'd like to call it. It is plain and simple atheism. Or if you go back to nature religion it is Celtic Druidism. Since for an atheist the world and everything in it is seemingly pointless they start seeking for spiritualism in new age hoaxes (note: I don't see real Paganism as a hoax) and ancient religions.
    The word religion itself implies that there should be some sort of belief. And since heathenism is a broken tradition it can't really be resurrected in a pure form.
    What kind of spiritual relationship? Just the beauty of the seasons or a real actual spirituality?

    Quote Originally Posted by Psychonaut View Post
    In my opinion, Heathenry's utility is striking. The ancestral veneration at the root of Heathenry promotes ethnic preservation more so than any other type of religion. Heathenry's pneumatology promotes strong family bonds in a way that Christianity is incapable of doing. Heathen ethics promote mental heath by focusing on living a good life in this world, rather than devoting our lives to preparation for the afterlife. The pseudo-pantheism of Heathenry also encourages us to have a healthier relationship with nature than does the dominionism of Christianity. And the list goes on and on...
    Ancestral veneration is all jolly good, but what's the point in sacrificing a goat for your ancestors if you don't really believe they will be better off for it?
    How does paganism promote stronger family bonds?
    You have got the concept of Christianity all wrong, a good life in this world will lead to a good life in the next. Nobody expects you to sit around and wait for Armageddon.
    For me a healthy relation with nature is to try and preserve as much as you can of it but I have no interest in sacrificing sheep near old oaks. Obviously preserving nature has for me nothing to do with religion. Any man, woman or child with half a brain understands the value of preserving it nowadays.

    Quote Originally Posted by Angantyr View Post
    There are probably no neo-pagans here, as there probably are none on most nationalist or European boards. Wiccans and their ilk are usually quite liberal and universalist. You have set up a straw man in order to knock it down.
    Indeed. I was however looking for real neo-pagans who actually believe in what they do not grown men playing Dungeons & Dragons in their backyard.
    There are, however, Pagan reconstructionists. European Paganism is an integral part of our European heritage, one unifected by Asian Abrahamitic beliefs. Within our number are those who truly believe and those who respect and participate in our faith and probably everything in between.
    And those are the pagans who have my full respect.
    There is nothing particularly strange about that. There are many people who celebrate Christmas and yet who do not believe in Jesus as anything more than a fairy tale.
    Yes but these people don't go to church because their ancestors did so 600 years ago either. They don't believe and they don't pretend to believe either.
    In any case Christmas is a capitalist holiday more so than spiritual nowadays.


    Answer to Ňttar:
    (will not quote for obvious reasons)
    Umm.. I don't really understand where you are trying to get with all this. There's a lot of historical fact there, most of which was already known to me to begin with.
    It seems to me that you're heading off topic debating whether of not Christianity is true which was not at all the intent of this thread.
    Is there anything in this post that actually deals with the topic at hand, which is neo-paganism without spirituality?
    Obviously your type of paganism, Hinduism or what you call it is not devoid of the spirit and hence doesn't bother me.

    The prefix neo is there for obvious reasons. Paganism has been dead for 1000 years give or take X hundred years depending on where in Europe you are.
    You will probably only find Christians for as long as you can get back in your family history. For me that is the very essence of traditionalism and Roman Catholicism is the strongest pan-European tradition still alive.

    I must still thank you for an interesting post Ňttar up.

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    Oh Lordy,

    Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

    Hebrews 11:1
    Hebrews..??

    We don't hope for anything. We make our own sandwiches. Hope is related to Help. We don't need, or want, any help. We count on ourselves.

    A favorite Nietzsche quote for this one..

    “Do I hear correctly? They call it Judgment Day, the coming of their kingdom, the ‘Kingdom of God.’ Meanwhile they live in ‘faith,’ in ‘love,’ in ‘hope.’”

    “Stop! I’ve heard enough.”
    Faith has always been a word that bothers me. The Odinic-Rite says “Faith, Folk, Family”.. Whatever could that mean..?? What role could faith play..

    Play..??

    There is a certain utility of our heathenism, and it has to do with play..

    I won't go into it to much, but there is an aspect of play with belief..that is what Campbell called “The Lesson of the Mask”..

    ...

    So, this is a funny thread. There is talk of D@D and how “somewhich” ( my favorite sandwich ) way or another it has to do with us living in a fantasy world. Folks not having faith ( oh.. I assure you we play plenty.. ) and all the rest. What a joke.

    Good Day..

    Later,
    -Lyfing

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    The universe is not pointless without a God. It is just up to us conscious beings to give it its meaning and to experience it. To paraphrase Sloterdijk's summary of Nietzsche, since there is no life after death, we need to make sure we have one before death.

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    Wow, meaty thread and meaty post I have to say. Welcome here btw Lysander, I've not taken the opportunity to welcome you yet so "Welcome!"

    Ok, onto this meaty stuff ....

    Quote Originally Posted by Lysander
    I don't even know what a Wiccan is.
    Wicca (the noun, "Wiccan" the adjective) is identified as a neo-pagan spiritual tradition (I use that latter term loosely in this case) which is highly syncretic and eclectic in its development as well as its methods. For all intents and purposes it IS a fabricated spiritual tradition in the truest sense of the word "fabrication". Compare this to a spiritual tradition based on historical reconstruction, as found in polytheistic reconstructionism, and you will get a sense of the very difference between the two stypes of spirituality.

    [I've left a few links there to various entries on Wikipedia with respect to the common definitions of thse terms. Please note that Wikipedia is not the last word on such definitions but it does provide a good grounding in terms of concepts to be explored.]

    Coming back to the term Neo-paganism then, you will find that most adherents of Polytheistic Reconstructionism (of which Heathenry is a part) do not employ the word "neo-pagan" to denote their pagan tradition. Clearly there is nothing "new" about it since it is deeply rooted in history, a history, I will remind people, that has been driven underground due to Christian conversions but which has nonetheless left its defiantly indelible mark in the Roman Catholic Church. (Refer to Ottar's excellent post with respect to this matter).

    Thus we are NOT neo-pagan, but pagan. And I even have some Heathen friends who despise the very term "pagan" due to its derogatory nature. In the end though, we are just modern-day folk who follow older spiritual folk customs.

    How does this tie into the concept of "faith" then?

    In our spiritual tradition, there is no sense of "faith" as in the Christian tradition. The concept of "faith" is very much an Abrahamic concept stemming from the recorded (his)stories as found in the Pentateuch itself, the most significant of course being the (his)story of Abraham in the Book of Genesis. Here we learn of the ultimate exercise of faith in the Judaeo-Christian God when Abraham is requested by God to sacrifice his one and only son Isaac. This (his)story is indeed the very foundation of the Judaeo-Christian concept of "faith". Faith is the very linchpin of this spiritual tradition.

    Compare this to Germanic Heathen Lore then and you'll not find any such theme of "faith" in this sense. Interactions of humans and deities and other beings in the Heathen spiritual custom are not based on placing one's fate (and therefore by extension faith) in the hands of another but in oneself (which plays into one's as well as others' wyrd(s)) along with the spiritual energy provided by one's hamingja.

    Indeed when studied further one starts appreciating the very different natures of a Heathen mindset and a Christian mindset. In essence they are worlds apart.

    That's exactly what I like to call ethnic religion which serves no purpose at all. "I am Germanic and hence I'd like to believe in Thor, Freya etc".
    But such a statement is simplifying things to the point of ridiculousness I'm afraid to say. Heathenry is far from being an atheistic tradition. In fact I would counter that there is no such concept in Heathenry. One might interpret deities and other beings in the multiverse in very different ways, but Heathens do recognise the importance of their myths (which does not mean falsehoods btw as Christians are apt to interpret the word) and the significance of the stories of the deities and other beings in their myths. I would suspect it is only a spiritually immature Germanic Heathen that would make a comment as you've stated above.

    And as for Heathenry being an ethnic religion, well I propose that this is only logical. Heathenry is a spiritual tradition borne of a People, of a Folk. It encompasses not only praxis but the metaphysics which give meaning to the praxis. It is an organic process as organic as human beings are: it sprouts, grows, matures, ages, dies, and becomes reborn. Ours is not a static tradition, but one which is dynamic and has life!


    The word religion itself implies that there should be some sort of belief. And since heathenism is a broken tradition it can't really be resurrected in a pure form.
    What kind of spiritual relationship? Just the beauty of the seasons or a real actual spirituality?
    I'm running out of time so some of this will have to do for now...thre's so much I'd like to address, but Sunna's out and my son is getting impatient :

    But why must there be "belief"? Belief is a contentious word in the Germanic spiritual tradition and needs to be defined in order to be discussed. For the most part, we do not "believe" in our deities as a Christian would, though I admit that some of us do. But the essence of the word "belief" is different.

    And yes it is "real spirituality" but again needs defining if we are to discuss it properly and do th discussion justice.


    [QUOTE]Ancestral veneration is all jolly good, but what's the point in sacrificing a goat for your ancestors if you don't really believe they will be better off for it?
    How does paganism promote stronger family bonds?
    You have got the concept of Christianity all wrong, a good life in this world will lead to a good life in the next. Nobody expects you to sit around and wait for Armageddon.
    For me a healthy relation with nature is to try and preserve as much as you can of it but I have no interest in sacrificing sheep near old oaks. Obviously preserving nature has for me nothing to do with religion. Any man, woman or child with half a brain understands the value of preserving it nowadays.


    Indeed. I was however looking for real neo-pagans who actually believe in what they do not grown men playing Dungeons & Dragons in their backyard.

    And those are the pagans who have my full respect.[QUOTE]

    Oh jeepers you raise interesting questions that do have sound answers. But alas, this will have to wait for now.

    Yes but these people don't go to church because their ancestors did so 600 years ago either. They don't believe and they don't pretend to believe either.
    In any case Christmas is a capitalist holiday more so than spiritual nowadays.
    How do you know? Family traditions are hard to break. This is an important way in which we define ourselves as belonging as human beings--the sociological side of things.

    As for your last statement, point well taken. And I certainly wouldn't disagree there. But it bhooves us to change that and reclaim the spiritual aspect of Yule and Christmas.

    Cheers Lysander and All! Great thread btw! And welcome again!...Aemma

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lysander View Post
    I don't even know what a Wiccan is.

    Indeed. I was however looking for real neo-pagans who actually believe in what they do not grown men playing Dungeons & Dragons in their backyard.

    Yes but these people don't go to church because their ancestors did so 600 years ago either. They don't believe and they don't pretend to believe either.
    In any case Christmas is a capitalist holiday more so than spiritual nowadays.
    If you do not know what a Wiccan is, then you should not be making posts stating an opinion about neo-pagans.

    If you think that reconstructionists are neo-pagans, then you are even more lost.

    Lastly, there are people who go to church because they are nominal Christians. They go on Christmas to sing carols. They go on Easter. They get married in a church by a priest or pastor. Families who arrange religious funeral services.

    Moreover, there is a huge social difference between reconstructive Paganism and Christianity, as Psychinaut pointed out. Practicing Paganism without absolute belief is much more understandable than practicing Christianity without absolute belief. Paganism is pride in one's ancestors and one's family and one's descendants. Paganism is self-reliance and self-restraint. Paganism is a relationship with nature and a way of marking the passing of the seasons. Christianity is not based on pride or self-reliance at all, but on surrendering oneself to a god based on a concept of being unworthy.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lysander View Post
    I don't even know what a Wiccan is.
    And you don't really need to know. Wicca as first developed in the 1950s had some redeeming qualities, but nowadays it has become watered down fluff-bunny, pixie dust tomfoolery. See an awesome article called "Why Wiccans suck." Nowadays, they are a huge part of the problem that makes "pagans" look bad (People who play D&D in their backyard.)

    The site for this article has since disappeared, but it is partly preserved in the archive below... See the FAQ and Links section.

    http://web.archive.org/web/200601010...ccanssuck.com/

    Answer to Ňttar:[/B] (will not quote for obvious reasons)
    Umm.. I don't really understand where you are trying to get with all this. There's a lot of historical fact there, most of which was already known to me to begin with.
    What I'm getting at may take a small leap to get to, but I believe it is clear. I have a hard-time understanding why Catholics, the ones who know that their religion has blended with paganism, still believe in the efficacy of the Catholic Church as giving salvation. If you have correct belief, you believe Jesus was virgin-born, that Mary was immaculate, that rites can save your soul, that your sex-life should more or less be ascetic and confined to marriage only. I once heard it said "The ones who nailed him to the cross, now rule in his name." Do you not find it ironic that the very empire Jesus was against, blended and distorted his religion for political gain? Knowing the influence of pagan religion(s) on Christianity does that not challenge the efficacy of dogmas, and the spiritual power of the Pope, as appointed by God? I believe that if anyone sees the virgin birth and resurrection from the dead as more than an allegory, than this is irrational. How is one's "faith" sustained in the Catholic Church then? (I am not attempting to be adversarial, but I think my counter-argument is understandable and deserves to be addressed.)


    It seems to me that you're heading off topic debating whether of not Christianity is true which was not at all the intent of this thread.
    I think that if you question other's faith, than people have a right to question yours, as I am truly curious about knowing an enlightened Catholic's answer (ie a Catholic who is aware of the syncretism in his religion.) to my points.

    Is there anything in this post that actually deals with the topic at hand, which is neo-paganism without spirituality?
    My answer (which my post hints at with, 'I am not a neo-pagan') would be that most "neo-pagans" have no legitimacy as they are not grounded in the scholarly, they do not approach their tradition with respect and solemnity. My argument (which I have expressed in a number of other threads) is that ancient indigenous religion is something which can stand on its own. It has its own history. Apuleius, Homer, Julius Caesar, Horace, Cicero, Lucan, Ovid, Virgil, and countless others give us first-hand commentary on a once living tradition; a tradition which has no need of crystal balls, tarot, and other modern hogwash.

    I believe that the crisis of modern paganism is that these D&D pseudo-pagans give us a bad name. My practice is grounded in scholarly material, primary sources, solemnity, and reputable commentary. I condemn this all-pervading pseudo-paganism just as much as you. See my other posts:

    "Dignified Paganism" #1

    and my contributions to the thread "Everyone's a pagan now."


    Obviously your type of paganism, Hinduism or what you call it is not devoid of the spirit and hence doesn't bother me.
    That's good to hear and I would agree with you that fluff-bunny D&D players are a huge part of the problem in modern "paganism".

    [quoteThe prefix neo is there for obvious reasons. Paganism has been dead for 1000 years give or take X hundred years depending on where in Europe you are.[/quote]

    I still object to the use (by so-called pagans) of the prefix neo- as it is imperative that true indigenous practitioners go back to the source to reconstruct their old religion(s).

    For me that is the very essence of traditionalism and Roman Catholicism is the strongest pan-European tradition still alive.
    So are you Catholic because you believe in the efficacy of the church as a road to salvation? Do you venerate Jesus because you believe he was the foremost example of a moral human being, that he died for your sins, was virgin born, resurrected, and the messiah?

    And what do you think about the historical Yahushua ben Miriam? Would he look approvingly on his church and what it has become? Would he approve of the massive grand churches, when he told his followers to give up their families, and to give of their wealth to help the poor?

    Or are you Catholic because it is "the strongest pan-European tradition" ?

    No offense, but this motivation seems a matter of culture and politics rather than a matter of faith/belief or religion/spirituality.

    I must still thank you for an interesting post Ňttar up.
    Thank you and you're welcome.


    Only butthurted clowns minuses my posts. -- Лиссиы

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    the Lacedaemonian Lysander's Avatar
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    AAAAAARRGG! This makes me furious I spent almost an hour answering all posts and my web browser ended up CRASHING!

    You will have to excuse me for the rather short answers now as I really don't feel like writing all that again.

    @Lyfing:
    And you think Herr Nietzche would have anything positive to say about paganism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Loddfafner View Post
    The universe is not pointless without a God. It is just up to us conscious beings to give it its meaning and to experience it. To paraphrase Sloterdijk's summary of Nietzsche, since there is no life after death, we need to make sure we have one before death.
    That is exactly the kind of mindset that has made the west into the liberal hell hole it is today. There is no moral and there are no obligations.
    "I only live once so I will sleep around with half of the town"
    "I only live once and don't want a child yet, abortion is the solution"!
    etc.

    Since you are never responsible for what you do you can live as you want and get away with it. Personally I find people without moral repulsing. It leads to the gay-mafia "everything is okay" type of world that makes me want to puke.
    The pagan religions have their honour codes and we Christians have our bible to stop this kind of behaviour. In any case none of us could call ourselves honourable beings if we lived by the rule "you only live once".

    Quote Originally Posted by Aemma View Post
    Wow, meaty thread and meaty post I have to say. Welcome here btw Lysander, I've not taken the opportunity to welcome you yet so "Welcome!"
    Thank you .

    Wicca (the noun, "Wiccan" the adjective) is identified as a neo-pagan spiritual tradition (I use that latter term loosely in this case) which is highly syncretic and eclectic in its development as well as its methods. For all intents and purposes it IS a fabricated spiritual tradition in the truest sense of the word "fabrication". Compare this to a spiritual tradition based on historical reconstruction, as found in polytheistic reconstructionism, and you will get a sense of the very difference between the two stypes of spirituality.

    [I've left a few links there to various entries on Wikipedia with respect to the common definitions of thse terms. Please note that Wikipedia is not the last word on such definitions but it does provide a good grounding in terms of concepts to be explored.]

    Coming back to the term Neo-paganism then, you will find that most adherents of Polytheistic Reconstructionism (of which Heathenry is a part) do not employ the word "neo-pagan" to denote their pagan tradition. Clearly there is nothing "new" about it since it is deeply rooted in history, a history, I will remind people, that has been driven underground due to Christian conversions but which has nonetheless left its defiantly indelible mark in the Roman Catholic Church. (Refer to Ottar's excellent post with respect to this matter).

    Thus we are NOT neo-pagan, but pagan. And I even have some Heathen friends who despise the very term "pagan" due to its derogatory nature. In the end though, we are just modern-day folk who follow older spiritual folk customs.

    How does this tie into the concept of "faith" then?

    In our spiritual tradition, there is no sense of "faith" as in the Christian tradition. The concept of "faith" is very much an Abrahamic concept stemming from the recorded (his)stories as found in the Pentateuch itself, the most significant of course being the (his)story of Abraham in the Book of Genesis. Here we learn of the ultimate exercise of faith in the Judaeo-Christian God when Abraham is requested by God to sacrifice his one and only son Isaac. This (his)story is indeed the very foundation of the Judaeo-Christian concept of "faith". Faith is the very linchpin of this spiritual tradition.

    Compare this to Germanic Heathen Lore then and you'll not find any such theme of "faith" in this sense. Interactions of humans and deities and other beings in the Heathen spiritual custom are not based on placing one's fate (and therefore by extension faith) in the hands of another but in oneself (which plays into one's as well as others' wyrd(s)) along with the spiritual energy provided by one's hamingja.

    Indeed when studied further one starts appreciating the very different natures of a Heathen mindset and a Christian mindset. In essence they are worlds apart.



    But such a statement is simplifying things to the point of ridiculousness I'm afraid to say. Heathenry is far from being an atheistic tradition. In fact I would counter that there is no such concept in Heathenry. One might interpret deities and other beings in the multiverse in very different ways, but Heathens do recognise the importance of their myths (which does not mean falsehoods btw as Christians are apt to interpret the word) and the significance of the stories of the deities and other beings in their myths. I would suspect it is only a spiritually immature Germanic Heathen that would make a comment as you've stated above.
    Many pagans seem to have a strange view on the historical part of their religion that goes something like "a vikings wouldn't kneel even for Thor" and that all pagans were semi-religious who only explained natural phenomena with the myths instead of actually believing them to be true. Nothing could in fact be further from the truth. Sure we know of some Greek philosophers who were atheists and agnostics but that doesn't mean that being an atheist was normal. I dare say that next to all Greeks believed in the Olympians. Otherwise they would not have sacrificed for them on a daily basis.

    The same goes for the Germanic peoples. They weren't semi religious, they were extremely superstitious.
    So let me put it this way.
    Have you ever sacrificed anything for your ancestors or Gods? Did you think that your ancestors were better of for it or in scenario B that your Gods were pleased?

    And as for Heathenry being an ethnic religion, well I propose that this is only logical. Heathenry is a spiritual tradition borne of a People, of a Folk. It encompasses not only praxis but the metaphysics which give meaning to the praxis. It is an organic process as organic as human beings are: it sprouts, grows, matures, ages, dies, and becomes reborn. Ours is not a static tradition, but one which is dynamic and has life!
    I'm just afraid it has grown too much alongside with the modern world and become just a meeting ground for nationalistic movements instead of actually having any spirituality.

    I mean if you don't really believe that Thor is up there riding his chariot then you're not a pagan. You're a neo-pagan atheist.... something... It's almost like an oxymoron.
    Because as I said, our ancestors did really believe in this stuff. I read a book about by a German author but his name has slipped from my mind. A shame, he wrote about the spirituality of the old Germanic religion.

    But why must there be "belief"? Belief is a contentious word in the Germanic spiritual tradition and needs to be defined in order to be discussed. For the most part, we do not "believe" in our deities as a Christian would, though I admit that some of us do. But the essence of the word "belief" is different.


    And yes it is "real spirituality" but again needs defining if we are to discuss it properly and do th discussion justice.
    And that's exactly what makes you a neo-pagan and not a true heathen .

    How do you know? Family traditions are hard to break. This is an important way in which we define ourselves as belonging as human beings--the sociological side of things.
    Trust me, I know. I was raised Traditionally-Orthodox religiously atheist I know all about breaking traditions .

    As for your last statement, point well taken. And I certainly wouldn't disagree there. But it bhooves us to change that and reclaim the spiritual aspect of Yule and Christmas.
    Well said!

    Cheers Lysander and All! Great thread btw! And welcome again!...Aemma
    You have a great day Aemma, see you around .

    @Angantyr:
    I have read more than you might think about ancient Indo-European religions as they interest me.

    But still, either you really aren't understanding what I'm getting at or you don't want to. People who get married in church because it's a tradition even if they are atheist don't claim to be Christians. I think Christian has more a cultural meaning in America than it does in Europe. In America you can expect almost everyone to say they are Christian but not too many of them actually go to church regularly. In Europe if you say you are Christian people will interpret it as you being religious.

    Practicing ANY religion be it Christianity, paganism or whateverism without faith is beyond me and is what is supposed to be the subject of discussion here.

    Quote Originally Posted by Óttar View Post
    What I'm getting at may take a small leap to get to, but I believe it is clear. I have a hard-time understanding why Catholics, the ones who know that their religion has blended with paganism, still believe in the efficacy of the Catholic Church as giving salvation. If you have correct belief, you believe Jesus was virgin-born, that Mary was immaculate, that rites can save your soul, that your sex-life should more or less be ascetic and confined to marriage only. I once heard it said "The ones who nailed him to the cross, now rule in his name." Do you not find it ironic that the very empire Jesus was against, blended and distorted his religion for political gain? Knowing the influence of pagan religion(s) on Christianity does that not challenge the efficacy of dogmas, and the spiritual power of the Pope, as appointed by God? I believe that if anyone sees the virgin birth and resurrection from the dead as more than an allegory, than this is irrational. How is one's "faith" sustained in the Catholic Church then? (I am not attempting to be adversarial, but I think my counter-argument is understandable and deserves to be addressed.)
    We are really getting off topic here but...
    It is irrelevant who nailed Jesus to the cross, it was bound to happen it didn't matter whether the Chinese or Romans did it.
    While it is true that Christianity was made the official religion for political gain I fail to see what it has to do with Catholicism anyway.
    The popes are followers to St. Paul who got the keys to heaven from Jesus. The paganism that has been absorbed by the Catholic church is nothing more than tradition such as holidays and has nothing to with the spirituality.

    You must excuse me but I didn't understand everything you wrote (English is a foreign language to me).


    I think that if you question other's faith, than people have a right to question yours, as I am truly curious about knowing an enlightened Catholic's answer (ie a Catholic who is aware of the syncretism in his religion.) to my points.
    Firstly, yes they do, and they are welcome to do so. Second, I have not questioned anybody's faith. This topic is not at all about faith. It is about atheist playing pagans. Further if you want to question my religion then start a thread about. I have a feeling that this thread is being hijacked into an anti-Christianity one.

    My answer (which my post hints at with, 'I am not a neo-pagan') would be that most "neo-pagans" have no legitimacy as they are not grounded in the scholarly, they do not approach their tradition with respect and solemnity. My argument (which I have expressed in a number of other threads) is that ancient indigenous religion is something which can stand on its own. It has its own history. Apuleius, Homer, Julius Caesar, Horace, Cicero, Lucan, Ovid, Virgil, and countless others give us first-hand commentary on a once living tradition; a tradition which has no need of crystal balls, tarot, and other modern hogwash.
    Amen.


    I believe that the crisis of modern paganism is that these D&D pseudo-pagans give us a bad name. My practice is grounded in scholarly material, primary sources, solemnity, and reputable commentary. I condemn this all-pervading pseudo-paganism just as much as you. See my other posts:

    "Dignified Paganism" #1

    and my contributions to the thread "Everyone's a pagan now."




    That's good to hear and I would agree with you that fluff-bunny D&D players are a huge part of the problem in modern "paganism".
    Then we are not in disagreement on any point.

    I still object to the use (by so-called pagans) of the prefix neo- as it is imperative that true indigenous practitioners go back to the source to reconstruct their old religion(s).
    Well in any case that is just rhetoric and the least of your problem I dare say. Let's just leave it at that.

    So are you Catholic because you believe in the efficacy of the church as a road to salvation? Do you venerate Jesus because you believe he was the foremost example of a moral human being, that he died for your sins, was virgin born, resurrected, and the messiah?

    And what do you think about the historical Yahushua ben Miriam? Would he look approvingly on his church and what it has become? Would he approve of the massive grand churches, when he told his followers to give up their families, and to give of their wealth to help the poor?

    Or are you Catholic because it is "the strongest pan-European tradition" ?

    No offense, but this motivation seems a matter of culture and politics rather than a matter of faith/belief or religion/spirituality.
    Well to really understand my conversion to Catholicism I would have to tell you my life story which is not really interesting at all.
    Let me put it this way. I started reading works by ancient philosophers when I was around 15-16. My interest grew and I soon started reading German ones of whom my favourite was Nietzsche. I got stuck with the idea of Nihilism for maybe a year before I became a traditionalist.
    Because I was a traditionalist at this point the Catholic church got my interest but as I got deeper into it it became a spiritual thing also. And so before I converted it had become mainly a spiritual thing.

    And yes, the greed of catholic church during the middle ages is repulsing and very much against the scripture. But there's no point in blowing up these magnificent works of architecture any more.
    Usually wherever you go in Europe the cathedrals are the buildings most worth seeing.

    Live well and prosper Ňttar .

    Lysander, out.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Óttar View Post
    Nowadays, they are a huge part of the problem that makes "pagans" look bad (People who play D&D in their backyard.)
    Most of us 'people who play D&D in their backyard' aren't pagans. Ironically enough, we don't hold a positive view of them because they get all the suburban housewives and old ladies all riled up when some kid commits suicide and then 'omgz that book has spells in it they must be into magic and witches and pagans call Rev Henry for an intervention!"

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