Kurultáj - The Eastern Tribal Assembly

[Murat ÖZCAN]

There are so many...

There was two camps; the ones who supported Finnic theory and their opponents who supported traditional theory of Turkic/Altaic roots.

Read this article about the history of Ugric-Turkic battle;
http://eap.ee/public/va_lu/l37-2-1.pdf


The linguist who first created the separate Finno-Hungarian group in late 19th century was a German who couldn't even properly speak neither of these languages. You can read it from the article above.

Imho, the so-called Finnic-Hungarian theory was a result of some political factors back in late 19th and early 20th century.

Aren't finno-ugor nations turanid,too?

[Szegedist]

The linguist who first created the separate Finno-Hungarian group in late 19th century was a German who couldn't even properly speak neither of these languages. You can read it from the article above.

Imho, the so-called Finnic-Hungarian theory was a result of some political factors back in late 19th and early 20th century.

Another factor to consider here is politics. The implications of the acceptance of the Turanic idea would entail the cessation of servility towards the EU, a genuine eastward opening, as well as an ethno-nationalistic awakening, neither of which serve the interests of the current, oppressive democratic regime and by extension, its academic mameluks.

Dr. István Kiszely on the Finno-Ugric theory:

Contrary to the certainty of the scholars of Hungary and the world, the knowledge that the Hungarian language is of Turkish origin was questioned by Szenczi Molnár Albert, Johann Eberhard Fischer, August Schlözer in the 17th century. Later, the monarchy-serving henchmen, astronomer – and in linguistics ignorant – Sajnovics János (1733-1785); friend of Schlözer, medical doctor Gyarmathy Sámuel (1751-1830); linguist Reguly Antal; linguist Saxon Hunfalvy (Hunsdorfer) Pál; and the German Joseph Budenz (who could hardly speak a word of Hungarian) created a Magyar “ancient history” that took away the pride, ancestry and knowledge of the past of the Magyars and which derived the Magyars from the hunter-gatherer Finn-Ugric culture. When the minister for Religion and Education, Trefort Ágost (1817-1888), who was originally sympathetic to the Magyars, had to answer to the Magyars who protested against the Finn-Ugric theory of their origin forced upon them by the Chancellery, he answered:

“I respect the standpoint of You gentlemen, I however – as minister – have to look to the interests of the country, and therefore, from an external viewpoint, I accept the more advantageous principle of the Finn-Ugric theory of origin, because we need not Asiatic but European kinsmen. The government will in the future only support those spokespersons of science, who fight at the side of the Finn-Ugric theory of origin.”

http://istvandr.kiszely.hu/ostortenet/005.html





Kiszely István: A magyarok eredete és ôsi kultúrája I. Püski Kiadó, Budapest, 2000.

On page 109 Kiszely quotes another veteran historian and archaeologist – awarded in September 2007 with the Hungarian Heritage Award (Magyar Örökség Díj) by the Hungarian Academy of Sciences, despite his politically incorrect discoveries – professor Kornél Bakay:

“For the Germans a thousand years was not enough to “forgive” the existence of the Magyars. From the 6th to the 18th century the Germans preferred to call the Magyars wild Huns, Avars, Agarenus [?], but when – via Magyar tradition – the Hungarian historians started propagating the Scythian-Hun-Avar relation documented in their chronicles in scientific books as well, at first the Germans were surprised, then mounted a fierce counter-attack. This went so far, that in the 18th century Holy Roman Emperor Joseph II (1780-1790) decreed the prohibition of teaching Magyar history and origins.”

On page 110:

“August Ludwig Schlözer made Fischer’s work famous in his works “Probe Russischen Annales” printed 1768 and “Allgemeine Nordische Geschichte” printed in 1771. Schlözer hated the Magyars and was happy to hear Fischer’s idea, that “Vogul-Jugri” is equivalent of the Magyars. Delighted, he mentions that the relatives of the Voguls, the Samoyeds are cannibals (“Selbstfresser”), and continues: ‘none of the Finn peoples are master peoples, only the Magyars were later exceptions, but not even they were created to rule. They were the victims and play things of their neighbours, and consequently do not have their own history (“keine eigene Geschichte haben”). Likewise, the Finns have no history of their own, and let us not forget the writings of C. Tacitus: ‘The Finns are terribly fierce and appallingly poor, they have neither weapons, horses nor houses. They eat grass, their clothes are animal skin and they sleep on the ground. Their only tool is the arrow…they have no other desires.’ These then are the relatives of the Magyars.”

On page 112:

“Gyarmathi Sámuel (1751-1830) actually befriended A.L. Schlözer as a medical doctor in 1795 in Göttingen, and was up until that time a passionate adherent of the Scythian-Hun-Avar-Turk theory. Now, under the influence and pressure of Schlözer, Gyarmathi became the propagator of the Finn-Ugric theory. He did not start out as a linguist, he just wrote an amateur linguistic study as an application for a position at a journal, the title of which was “Cleverly Educating Magyar Language Master”. In this study he still accepts the traditional theory based on the teachings of Otrokocsi Fóris Ferenc and Kalmár György. In 1795 he travels to Göttingen and meets Schlözer. Influenced by Schlözer Gyarmathi writes his work entitled “Affinitas linguae Hungaricae cum linguis fennicae originis gramaticae demonstrata” (1799). Consisting of three chapters he writes about the Magyar-Turkic word connections, but also about the Slavic elements in the Magyar language. In the question of relations between languages he gives weight to the linguistic connections. Looking at his etymology with the eyes of today he gives many flawed examples. [...] Based on his linguistic material Gyarmathi came to the conclusion that the closest languages to the Magyar is the Vogul [Mansi] and the Ostyak. He felt that this research was better continued on site, yet nothing became of his travel plans… After this – with the exception of writing a dictionary – he never worked in lingustics again.”

The Hungarian scholars and scientists are not alone on this issue. One example out of a number is Japanese historian Shokotu Faisi, who wrote a letter addressed to the Hungarian people in general and to the Hungarian scholars and scientists in particular, dated July 2nd 2007. The source of this letter is unclear and there is an ongoing discussion on the net concerning its authenticity. Nevertheless, I’ve translated it here from the original Hungarian, because what has been written in it is true:

“Some of us scholars of Japanese ancient history have grown up with the belief that the most noble people and race of the earth is the Magyar. We believed and still believe You to be, beloved Magyar kinsmen, the progeny of the Empire of the Rising Sun, whom the karma of history have carried far away. Acknowledging their racial excellence we arrived in those days in Budapest to study Hungarian under the guidance of the wise Imaoka Gyuicsiro.* After the passing of thirty years I have to conclude the following:

1) There existed no true Magyar historiography neither under the Habsburgs nor during the Horthy era. In their own interest the Habsburgs exterminated everything which referred to an ancient origin. The Teleki Pál Institute with its own biased scholars (the Horthy era scientific body) under the leadership of Hómann Bálint “re-evaluated” Magyar history in favour of the Roman Catholic church and the house of Habsburg.

2) In this group there exists no scholar basing their work on real racial myths, for how could those evaluate the strength and the veracity of these myths who have destroyed the credibility of their own National Chronicle?

Since the Magyar nation, race and people from the point of view of historical research must fall under the same examination as any other nation, race and people, I ask You my fellow Magyar contemporary historians, why do You in the questions regarding Your own race always refer to the Hitlerian anomalies? Why not refer to the racial similarities of “biblical Israel”? Israel is a nation, race and people, as are the Magyar, Japanese, Greek and Arab a race and a nation. But why do You – Magyar scholars – not finally solve the question of the myriad designations, personal and geographical names that occur in the Bible? From afar we can better see both the ambition and the deceit.

In truth, the Magyar race is by now quite mixed. The scholars of “Magyar” historiography are also of such mixed blood. There are history scholars of German-Magyar, Slavic-Magyar, Romanian-Magyar, Israelite-Magyar mix, too. It is interesting to conclude, observing from the outside, that neither one of these study true Magyar history, but they seek to distort Magyar history in favour of the Germans, Slavs, Romanians, Israelites. In connection to this I wish to direct a question to these colleagues, and through them to every Hungarian. Namely: Why is it that the Magyar nation is the only nation in the world whose origins and history they are trying to cover up? Who are behind this cover-up?

Until You will answer this question, we Japanese and all members belonging to Turanian clans (tribes) write in the language that has preserved the elements of the most ancient language – Magyar! – our letter of AWAKENING to some 800 million kinsmen (brethren), and with this we wish to pay homage to the Magyar people, race and nation for their most ancient origin and their many thousands of years of tradition – even if You want to falsify this fact.”

Also, language =/= ethnicity, this is one theory:

1. The Language

The ProtoHungarians were at least bilingual. Some of them spoke a Finno-Ugrian type of language, others a West-Turkic (Thranian or Onogur) tongue and some others probably an Iranian-Mesopotamian type of language. Gradually a new, composite language evolved, based on the grammatical structure of the Finno–Ugrian component, a logical, simple, agglutinating tongue. It retained the simplest basic words of that language, with the Turkic-Onogur and the Mesopotamian-Iranian elements enriching its vocabulary.

The name the Hungarians apply to themselves, ‘Magyar", derives from the Ugrian "Mansi– or "Magy–" with the addition of the Turkic "-eri." forming "Megyeri" – "Magyen." – "Magyar", which became the name of the largest tribe Both particles mean "men". The name given to them by the western historians, ‘Hungarian" (Latin: "Hungarus"), is a variation of the name "Hun-Ogur" – "Onogur" – "Hungur" used since the fifth century by foreign chroniclers, a reminder of their association with TurkicOnogur-Hun peoples.

2. Racial composition

Anthropometric measurements carried out on skeletons from the settlement period indicate a racially composite people. The main components were the Turanoid (Turkic-Onogur), the East–Baltic (Finno-Ugrian), the Uralian or Ugrian (the eastern branch of the Finno-Ugrian) with substantial components of Caucasian, Anatolian, Nordoid, Dinarian, Mediterranean and Alpine racial types.

3. Ethnogenesis

This linguistically and racially composite nation has obviously evolved from the successive amalgamations of clans, tribes and groups of various racial and geographical origins. The ProtoHungarian people were made up of some Nordic tribes of Ugrian origin who came from the Volga–Kama-Ural region and of a (probably larger) eastern component of Turkic–Onogur (Turanian) people who came from the Caspian region. These Turkic elements included Scythian, Hunnic and Avar types as well and later some Khazars. To these came the third, southern segment, the Caucasian (Sabir, Alanian) and Iranian-Mesopotamian elements.

It has been proven that all these races, cultures and languages contributed to the formation of the Magyar or Hungarian people and from their amalgamations arose during the first centuries of the Christian era a remarkably colorful, complex and viable nation, not unlike today’s evolving nations, the Australians or the Americans. The latent dynamism of this young People urged them to move on in search of a safer, more suitable homeland. These migrations lasted many centuries.


http://www.hungarianhistory.com/lib/.../chapter01.htm

[Szegedist]

Anyway, the 2012 Kurultáj was a semi-official government event, that received government sponsoring (70 million forints).

It has left the remote reaches, and now even our prime minister said we are half Asian, Matolcsy talked about a relation to the Japanese.



Sándor Lezsák (MDF, Fidez) greeting Turanians in the Hungarian parliament:



So it shows that it is not something that only the remote far right believes in, but it has penetrated mainstream politics.

Like this for example:

The Hungarian-Turán Foundation signs a strategic cooperation agreement with Turkey
http://www.hungarianambiance.com/201...ion-signs.html


Unfortunatelly, this is quite a problem for the "other type" of Hungarian nationalist, and that is the Western Oriented white supremacist or even White nationalist.

These still hate Turks, but see Germans, Austrians as our faithful allies.
I spoke to one, who said that the only true allies Hungary ever had were Austria and Poland.... /facepalm

Our neighbours to the West always looked down on us, even since we first arrived here, and they would gladly stick a knife in our back if it meant they could annex more of our land, enslave our people or to simply humiliate us.

[Onur]

Szegedist, thanks for the information and interesting quotes. Especially Dr. István Kiszely`s words about the Finno-Ugric propagandists being the monarchy-serving henchmen, astronomer – and in linguistics ignorant, medical doctors and people who could hardly speak a word of Hungarian. Tough, the minister`s response to this issue summarizes what happened back then.

This didnt only happen to Hungarians back then but Finns, Estonians too. The German, French and British scholars was considering these people as "Turko-Tatar Mongols" in Europe before and classifying as such in their ethnographic maps of Europe [while they clearly weren't as such but hey were just Eurasian] but something happened all of a sudden in 19th century and great powers felt the need to consolidate with them and Finno-Ugric theory has been born. They created a new path in European politics and ignored what they said about them before but started to consider Hungarians, Finns, Estonians as a part of Europe.


Szegedist, i have to tell you something tough; You wont be liked around here if you claim such things. You will be seen as traitor and anti-European by many in this forum.

[Szegedist]

Correct, the Finno-Ugric theory was mostly to make us more controrable.

Here is the reason:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hunor_and_Magor



The myth was also employed by later writers, most notably István Werbőczy, who used it to extol the Hungarian nobility in his highly influential collection of Hungarian customary law, the Tripartitum (completed 1514, first published 1517). According to Werbőczy, the Hungarians, as descendants of Hunor and Magor, were of 'Scythian' origin and subject to 'Scythian' law. "The Hungarians inherited their moral values and customs from the 'Scythians', who had once defeated even Darius and Alexander the Great. Their true vocation was war, which was the only activity that was noble enough to suit them." The nobles were free and equal; the peasants were the descendants of those who had been condemned for cowardice in battle and whose punishment had been commuted from execution to losing their social rank.[4] Werbőczy thus used the Hunor and Magor myth to justify Hungarian serfdom.[5] Werbőczy's ideas were eagerly adopted by the Hungarian nobility and became the charter of common law for three centuries.

“IT IS impossible to keep these ungrateful, unbending and rebellious people within bounds by reasoning with them nor can they be won over by tolerance nor ruled by law. One must fear a nation that knows no fear. That is why its will must be broken with a rod of iron...

” Clearly, General Raimondo Montecuccoli, the Habsburg military commander in Hungary, writing in the second half of the 17th century, was no lover of the people he was supposed to protect from the Ottoman threat. Nor were his imperial masters in Vienna.

[Szegedist]

Aren't finno-ugor nations turanid,too?

Debatable.

I have seen some Finns complain that they were not included in the Kurultáj, and if I am not mistaken, Finland will be represented in the 2014 Kurultáj.


They say these are the Turanian people



But Native Americans are sometimes included too, since there are some Genetic and cultural similarities, also it is believed that they originally migrated from Central Asia, through Siberia to North and South America.
Some peoples, like the Chukchi are descendants of the proto native Americans that didn't go all the way.

[Arrow Cross]

[Absinthe]

[QUOTE=Murat ÖZCAN;1263316]

Grand-Kurultáj





Nice Girl

Yeah, look at the guy's look, bet he fell off the horse, shortly after the photo was taken

[Szegedist]

There were also Caucasians

[Szegedist]

Szegedist, i have to tell you something tough; You wont be liked around here if you claim such things. You will be seen as traitor and anti-European by many in this forum.

Much of Europe has betrayed us so many times that I have lost count, so I am not too bothered about that.

What bothers me more are my own kin who hate this idea, and instead want to suck up to Europe and Israel.

There are many of my countrymen who see me as a traitor.