Who looks more Western/Germanic the Germans or the Dutch?

[Chichic]

The Dutch are a bit more northwestern European, and there's only a significant divide genetically between the North and the South, but divides within Germany are much larger. The northern Dutch are very similar to northern Germans, and southern Dutch very similar to western Germans, and they are all generally similar to each other. However many areas of Germany are significantly more central/southern/eastern European looking genetically. So i'd say if you took them both as a whole, the Dutch are more western than northern, eastern and south-eastern Germans, but less so than western and south-western Germans, while the Dutch are about as Germanic as north and north-western Germans, and more so than southern Germans.

No, the Dutch have shitloads of North Atlantid which is a very typical Western European phenotype, South and West Germans have much more tendencies towards Alpinid and Faelid which are rather Central European phenotypes.

[Septentrion]

I think the Dutch. In Germany there is a Baltid component which is completely absent in the Netherlands. Also the Netherlands is more precisely situated in the north which gives it alot more Nordish types than Germany. What do you guys think?

Sure. The Dutch as a whole look more "Western" than Germans! The Dutch are the most Germanic people of Europe, even more Germanic than the more prevalently blond, blue-eyed Norwegian, Swedish and Danish, Icelandic populations. Germany on the other hand does have stronger Baltid or Eastern component in comparison.

[Septentrion]

Actually, Germany has more Nordid individuals than the Netherlands, since its population is higher.

No. The Dutch has a much higher frequency of Nordid-looking individuals than Germans by a margin whether in the Hallstatt or Keltic variety. Germany has more of the Borreby and Faelid types.

[Septentrion]

No. The Dutch has a much higher frequency of Nordid-looking individuals than Germans by a margin whether in the Hallstatt or Keltic variety. Germany has more of the Borreby and Faelid types.

[Grace O'Malley]

What I've noticed is that as an Irish person I have a lot of affinity with Dutch (specifically North Dutch). The only reason I can think of is that Northwestern Europeans descend from similar populations. Anyone else got any theories on this?

My Eurogenes K13

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 North_Atlantic 52.04
2 Baltic 25.27
3 West_Med 9.81
4 West_Asian 7.25
5 East_Med 1.77
6 Red_Sea 1.50
7 Amerindian 1.38


Finished reading population data. 204 populations found.
13 components mode.

--------------------------------

Least-squares method.

Using 1 population approximation:
1 North_Dutch @ 3.343981
2 Irish @ 3.397813
3 West_Scottish @ 4.026271
4 Norwegian @ 4.042346
5 Orcadian @ 4.244986
6 Danish @ 4.289660
7 North_German @ 6.192955
8 Southeast_English @ 6.842666
9 Southwest_English @ 6.901150
10 Swedish @ 7.318733
11 South_Dutch @ 11.629003
12 West_German @ 12.655422
13 North_Swedish @ 14.482445
14 Austrian @ 17.549162
15 East_German @ 17.693420
16 French @ 18.062477
17 Hungarian @ 22.544872
18 Southwest_Finnish @ 23.876503
19 Spanish_Cataluna @ 26.292759
20 Southwest_French @ 27.316259

Using 2 populations approximation:
1 50% Irish +50% Norwegian @ 2.522953


Using 3 populations approximation:
1 50% Irish +25% Norwegian +25% Norwegian @ 2.522953


Using 4 populations approximation:
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ++++++++++++++++++
1 Irish + Norwegian + Norwegian + West_Scottish @ 2.519424
2 Irish + Irish + Norwegian + Norwegian @ 2.522953
3 Irish + Irish + North_Dutch + Norwegian @ 2.540311
4 Irish + North_Dutch + Norwegian + West_Scottish @ 2.548502
5 Norwegian + Norwegian + West_Scottish + West_Scottish @ 2.564251
6 North_Dutch + Norwegian + West_Scottish + West_Scottish @ 2.622005
7 North_German + Norwegian + West_Scottish + West_Scottish @ 2.648387
8 Irish + Irish + Irish + Norwegian @ 2.664680
9 Irish + North_German + Norwegian + West_Scottish @ 2.680890
10 Danish + Irish + Irish + Norwegian @ 2.683445
11 Danish + Irish + Norwegian + West_Scottish @ 2.695799
12 Irish + Irish + Norwegian + West_Scottish @ 2.721051
13 North_Dutch + North_Dutch + Norwegian + West_Scottish @ 2.729033
14 Danish + Norwegian + West_Scottish + West_Scottish @ 2.747781
15 Irish + Irish + Swedish + West_Scottish @ 2.753577
16 Irish + Irish + North_German + Norwegian @ 2.764748
17 Irish + North_Dutch + North_Dutch + Norwegian @ 2.766720
18 North_Dutch + Norwegian + Norwegian + West_Scottish @ 2.767802
19 Irish + Swedish + West_Scottish + West_Scottish @ 2.767981
20 Irish + Irish + Irish + Swedish @ 2.775764

My K15 map



Interesting but I think this is because of similar population origins. I don't have any Dutch ancestry.

[Septentrion]

No, the Dutch have shitloads of North Atlantid which is a very typical Western European phenotype, South and West Germans have much more tendencies towards Alpinid and Faelid which are rather Central European phenotypes.

The North-Atlantid phenotype is not a very typical Western European phenotype by any means. It is a North-West European phenotype in which individuals with dark hair combine it with a usually very light skin and very light eyes ( frequently light blue eyes), it is a predominantly Nordid(Keltic) with some Atlantid admixture. The Alpinid or West Alpine phenotype is much more of a typical Western European since it is much more common throughout Western Europe (France, Germany, Switzerland and Belgium). The Atlantid type is also more common in Western Europe, especially France. Don't confuse the Atlantid with the North-Atlantid!! Germany also has a much higher percentage of the "big-noses" or "hook-nosed" Dinarids than the Dutch. The Dinarid is a central and south-eastern European phenotype.

[Septentrion]

What I've noticed is that as an Irish person I have a lot of affinity with Dutch (specifically North Dutch). The only reason I can think of is that Northwestern Europeans descend from similar populations. Anyone else got any theories on this?

My Eurogenes K13

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 North_Atlantic 52.04
2 Baltic 25.27
3 West_Med 9.81
4 West_Asian 7.25
5 East_Med 1.77
6 Red_Sea 1.50
7 Amerindian 1.38


Finished reading population data. 204 populations found.
13 components mode.

--------------------------------

Least-squares method.

Using 1 population approximation:
1 North_Dutch @ 3.343981
2 Irish @ 3.397813
3 West_Scottish @ 4.026271
4 Norwegian @ 4.042346
5 Orcadian @ 4.244986
6 Danish @ 4.289660
7 North_German @ 6.192955
8 Southeast_English @ 6.842666
9 Southwest_English @ 6.901150
10 Swedish @ 7.318733
11 South_Dutch @ 11.629003
12 West_German @ 12.655422
13 North_Swedish @ 14.482445
14 Austrian @ 17.549162
15 East_German @ 17.693420
16 French @ 18.062477
17 Hungarian @ 22.544872
18 Southwest_Finnish @ 23.876503
19 Spanish_Cataluna @ 26.292759
20 Southwest_French @ 27.316259

Using 2 populations approximation:
1 50% Irish +50% Norwegian @ 2.522953


Using 3 populations approximation:
1 50% Irish +25% Norwegian +25% Norwegian @ 2.522953


Using 4 populations approximation:
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ++++++++++++++++++
1 Irish + Norwegian + Norwegian + West_Scottish @ 2.519424
2 Irish + Irish + Norwegian + Norwegian @ 2.522953
3 Irish + Irish + North_Dutch + Norwegian @ 2.540311
4 Irish + North_Dutch + Norwegian + West_Scottish @ 2.548502
5 Norwegian + Norwegian + West_Scottish + West_Scottish @ 2.564251
6 North_Dutch + Norwegian + West_Scottish + West_Scottish @ 2.622005
7 North_German + Norwegian + West_Scottish + West_Scottish @ 2.648387
8 Irish + Irish + Irish + Norwegian @ 2.664680
9 Irish + North_German + Norwegian + West_Scottish @ 2.680890
10 Danish + Irish + Irish + Norwegian @ 2.683445
11 Danish + Irish + Norwegian + West_Scottish @ 2.695799
12 Irish + Irish + Norwegian + West_Scottish @ 2.721051
13 North_Dutch + North_Dutch + Norwegian + West_Scottish @ 2.729033
14 Danish + Norwegian + West_Scottish + West_Scottish @ 2.747781
15 Irish + Irish + Swedish + West_Scottish @ 2.753577
16 Irish + Irish + North_German + Norwegian @ 2.764748
17 Irish + North_Dutch + North_Dutch + Norwegian @ 2.766720
18 North_Dutch + Norwegian + Norwegian + West_Scottish @ 2.767802
19 Irish + Swedish + West_Scottish + West_Scottish @ 2.767981
20 Irish + Irish + Irish + Swedish @ 2.775764

My K15 map



Interesting but I think this is because of similar population origins. I don't have any Dutch ancestry.

It is pretty simple in my opinion. The Irish as yourself show many similarities with the North Dutch, Danish and some Norwegian groups due to the fact, there was an earlier link between North-West Europeans before they became distinctly Celtic and Germanic. So is due to an Ancient Northern European link. This is why it is many times very difficult to separate the Celtic from the Germanic in English populations by genetics, because to begin with they are similar.

[Percivalle]

Dutch.

[Norb]

bump

[Septentrion]

I think the Dutch. In Germany there is a Baltid component which is completely absent in the Netherlands. Also the Netherlands is more precisely situated in the north which gives it alot more Nordish types than Germany. What do you guys think?

The Dutch are the most Germanic people by Y-Dna lineages in the world. "Germanic-looking", well I'd say the Germanic Nordic ( Anglo-Saxon) phenotype is more common among them than with Germans, especially in the provinces of Friesland and Groningen. Other phenotypes common among Germanic people of Europe such as Hallstatt, Dalofaelid, Borreby to a lesser extent Tronder are not rare. "Slavic" phenotypes such as Neo-Danubian, East Baltid, Pre-Slavic, even Ladogan are more common in Germany than in the Netherlands. That says it all!