Capitalism or Socialism?

[Loki]

Inspired by this thread of VA, I decided to make a poll.

I realise that there are many different forms and grades of both poles -- so please feel free to elaborate your thoughts on this.

I expect capitalism to win by a large margin in this poll, and am actually more interested in reading responding comments. I myself find merits in both, and would ideally like a balance which combines the best of both ideologies.

Public poll.

[Nodens]

False Dichotomy - Both are ill-defined and both (as commonly understood) are manifestations of modern liberal humanism.

[Karaten]

False Dichotomy - Both are ill-defined and both (as commonly understood) are manifestations of modern liberal humanism.

Perhaps, but if I were to choose the best of the two, it would be capitalism.

I actually have my own ideology of government that doesn't really fit this, but for now, I'll just say that capitalism is certainly better.

[Brännvin]

A mix of Socialism and Capitalism.

Indeed, given that socialism (not communism or totalitarianism) has barely existed anywhere, if at all, neither has capitalism in the true "free market" sense.

But current 'capitalists', rely on 'government' (politicians) to bend rules, provide subsidies, or give free resources to their corporations mainly in US , where do I find the greatest hypocrisy.

[Karaten]

Well, true pure capitalism is ideally the market form of anarchy. I would tweak it, though Socialism is not that tweak.

[SwordoftheVistula]

False Dichotomy - Both are ill-defined and both (as commonly understood) are manifestations of modern liberal humanism.

Liberal humanism is primarily a social concept, and capitalism and socialism are primarily economic concepts. There's obviously an amount of crossover such as otherwise 'capitalist' opponents of liberal humanism supporting restrictions or bans on 'economic' activities such as prostitution, gambling, abortion and drug/alcohol sales, but the poll is which side do you generally tend towards in the economic sphere in a default sense.

But current 'capitalists', rely on 'government' (politicians) to bend rules, provide subsidies, or give free resources to their corporations mainly in US.

Many such people are not true capitalists in the ideological sense, and others are just competing as best they can in the current mixed capitalist/socialist system to grab as much benefits as they can before their competitor does.

[Ariets]

The thing is that only capitalism works, and only capitalism means truly fair economic system, that makes you free and that is compatible with natural laws.Socialism is a theft, and socialist are thiefs.

As a note, such statements like Loki's signature "I support free healthcare for all poor people" are extreme naive, there's nothing for free in the world, and something like free healthcare is just not free.
"There's no such thing as a free lunch" Milton Friedman.

And as it is in socialism, how your own money are yours if you are not able to administrate them? Are you happy when goverment steals up to 75% of your earnings? (like in Sweden eg., or in Poland it can have even 70% by various taxes and other nonsense).

Its also crap that I have to pay for things that I dont use, or when I use from private not state source (then I have to pay twice!). Its crap when I have to pay for people that get things for "free", like for criminals, unemployed or homeless. They shouldn't earn money for doing nothing.

Smash the welfare state!

[Loki]

Currently in cinema so will respond in detail later. Fascinating topic though. Wish we could have input from Skadi's Bärin's "National Communism". Hors' "National Capitalism" is equally interesting. Hors, care to elaborate?

[The Lawspeaker]

This is a tough nut to crack because both extremes are bad. Minarchist capitalism gave us the atrocious working conditions and exploited working class of the 19th and early 20th century and hard-line socialism stifles all innovation and initiative.

If this crisis shows us one thing it is the absolute bankruptcy of the system that has plagued us for the past 50 or so years. It is the bankruptcy of a system that wasn't fair to begin with- at least not here in Europe. Not everyone got the chance of starting up it's own company because only the ones with the golden spoon in his mouth and the right connection in the circles of the financiers (government and private) could afford it. I think that this is in essence even a non-European system as both piracy capitalism and socialism are Jewish inventions (don't flare up you politically correct lot). In the cities of medieval Europe we had the guilds that were quite collective in their dealings and mindset and I believe that we should (in part) return to this system.

We will have to change our mindset again and realize that not one size fits all. We will have to teach the cooperation and the farmer to stand on their own legs again rather then to lean on the shoulder of the tax-payer. But on the other hand should we encourage small businesses and farmers to form (loose or strict depending on how they would like it) cooperatives or guilds. If farmers or entrepreneurs wish to remain independent then it is of course their prerogative. We will have to teach banks to invest in things that really matter: small loans to people willing to start up a business, our environment, human development. Micro-credits for our own kin rather then big loans for big companies and Africa.
We will have to rebuild our entire system from scratch and we better well get used to it. One thing we should definitely get rid off is globalization and free trade. It brought us nothing but misery.

But to all hard-line capitalists out here (I call them Scrooge's ): a welfare state is not socialistic. It would actually be a good capitalistic thing to do when you consider it to be an investment. You invest in people to bring them back into the labor market while you protect those that are infirm, aged or handicapped. They still buy your goods..
And when it comes to health care then my conscience says that the sick are not objects of trade. Health care is a right. Plain and simple so I am in favor of a guild-based health care system for those in guilds and a national health care system for everyone else- paid for by tax money. Sickness is not an object of trade and for those that see it that way: there is something wrong with your conscience. Back in the Middle Ages a lot of care was done by the Church (monasteries and Hôtel-Dieu's -lit. House of God) and care usually was for free or was 'repaid" in some other way). I think that the notion that someone had to pay for care- is Jewish. It's at least not European.

[Æmeric]

Capitalism. But without globalization or 'free trade'. What most people think of as being Capitalism is actually liberalized Socialism. Capitalism means no subsidizes for business (either directly or through the taxe code) or government mandated monopolies.