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Thread: Sorry, Vegans: Brussels Sprouts Like to Live, Too

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    Veteran Member Apricity Funding Member
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    Default Sorry, Vegans: Brussels Sprouts Like to Live, Too

    Here's an interesting article about plants and vegetarian diets

    ...But before we cede the entire moral penthouse to “committed vegetarians” and “strong ethical vegans,” we might consider that plants no more aspire to being stir-fried in a wok than a hog aspires to being peppercorn-studded in my Christmas clay pot. This is not meant as a trite argument or a chuckled aside. Plants are lively and seek to keep it that way. The more that scientists learn about the complexity of plants — their keen sensitivity to the environment, the speed with which they react to changes in the environment, and the extraordinary number of tricks that plants will rally to fight off attackers and solicit help from afar — the more impressed researchers become, and the less easily we can dismiss plants as so much fiberfill backdrop, passive sunlight collectors on which deer, antelope and vegans can conveniently graze. It’s time for a green revolution, a reseeding of our stubborn animal minds...
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    oOoOo Majar's Avatar
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    There's nothing truly ethical one can eat, so you might as well pay attention to nutritional value of your food rather than the supposed "rights" of other creatures. A purely vegan diet is not healthy, nor are humans evolved for such a diet. Yes, vegans tend to be slim but they have higher frequency of deficiencies in B12, Vitamin D, iron, protein, iodine, and Omega-3 fatty acids. Vegan mothers give birth to lower weight babies. Humans are omnivores, and eating meat was an important part of moving our evolution forward. Veganism is a religion people use to feel good about themselves.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Majar View Post
    There's nothing truly ethical one can eat
    I've come to the point of believing that the most "ethical" thing one can eat is whatever is most abundant in the area one is residing, be it animal or plant, so that the food consummed will disturb the equilibrium as little as possible.

    It is also the closest option to the natural human condition, i.e. eating what is available in the area (fish near the sea, animals in the steppes, plants where there is fertile soil, etc.)

    The other adjustment I would propose would be to eat accordingly to what you wish to achieve at any given time: meat for physical strength and vigor, plants for calming down the mind and concentrating, spices for fortifying the senses and sexual desires, etc.

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    One badass monkey Cail's Avatar
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    In theory, it could be ultimately "ethical" (in the ahimsa sense) to eat, for example, certain fruits. For example, an apple tree grows hundreds of apples in one season, of which maybe just several would grow into actual new apple trees in the wild. Thus, the rest of the fruit can be eaten without harming the tree in any way. Same can be applied to many cases, for example hens living without a rooster, will still produce eggs, that are infertile and won't develop into a chicken. Such eggs can be eaten.

    But in reality this is moronic. If people would think that eating other organisms is immoral, why does it apply only to humans? Then the only possible moral choice for them would be cleanse the Earth of any developed life, except for some of the species that depend solely on star energy consumption (certain green algae et cetera).

    This is the way of life, transfering the anti-entropy generated by stars up the food chains, thus allowing the progress. Without it developed life is impossible.

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    Ditto, Cail... and I must clarify that by "ethical" I mean logical/reasonable, hence the quotation marks. I don't believe in good and evil anyway

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    Senior Member Klärchen's Avatar
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    In 1973, a woman named Dorothy Retallack published a small book called The Sound of Music and Plants. Her book detailed experiments that she had been conducting at the Colorado Woman’s College in Denver using the school’s three Biotronic Control Chambers. Mrs. Retallack placed plants in each chamber and speakers through which she played sounds and particular styles of music. She watched the plants and recorded their progress daily. She was astounded at what she discovered.
    About Positive Music – The Plant Experiments

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    Junior Member Chris's Avatar
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    I'm vegan, and I'm sure I'll be very alone in this thread

    Like most mainstream media, this article was meant to make us feel helpless, so we don't change our behaviour. Plants don’t have a nervous system and didn’t evolve to feel pain. You can't possibly equate a veal calf crying for it's mother before being dragged off to live in total darkness with a plant releasing chemicals to defend itself.

    If the authur of this rubbish had felt that eating plants was bad they'd also inform the reader that raising cattle requires 7 pounds of grain to make one pound of beef. 66% of grain grown in the US ends up being fed to cattle. So if you eat meat you cause even more suffering to plants!

    Humans are so overpopulated we can no longer be considered part of the natural order. Predators should never outnumber their prey. That's why we have the nightmare that is factory farming to begin with.

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    А на красивые фантики клюют даже отпетые &#108 nisse's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris View Post
    I'm vegan, and I'm sure I'll be very alone in this thread
    ...here we go...you couldn't have stopped at the coma, could you...

    You can't possibly equate a veal calf crying for it's mother before being dragged off to live in total darkness with a plant releasing chemicals to defend itself.
    And why not? The calf crying for its mother comes down to the synthesis and release of some chemicals that induce muscle activity and result in sound emission...Just because that is more similar to what is seen in humans doesn't make it any more meaningful, just easier to relate to...

    If the authur of this rubbish had felt that eating plants was bad they'd also inform the reader that raising cattle requires 7 pounds of grain to make one pound of beef. 66% of grain grown in the US ends up being fed to cattle. So if you eat meat you cause even more suffering to plants!
    That's a much better argument than that crying calf rubbish...and of course the argument made in the article was not meant to be serious - we even use grain to make ethanol to be used as a fuel additive (to be nice to the planet, ironically) - clearly corn in nowhere near the top of the "let's be nice to" list...but corn wasn't even being used in the example, and it's an annual crop - it would die even if we didn't eat it.

    Humans are so overpopulated we can no longer be considered part of the natural order. Predators should never outnumber their prey. That's why we have the nightmare that is factory farming to begin with.
    Yeah, humans left the "natural order" long before this - when we started domesticating and deriving breeds of cattle....so that boat sailed quite a while ago.

    No offence, but the fact that you talk about how harmful we are to the planet *over the internet* instead of living in a naturalist commune makes you a hypocrite (unless your computer is biodegradable and powered by you on a bike...even then...ours aren't). Eating meat is a drop in an ocean (or a big lake, at least). If you make that choice, all the better for you, but to claim that it makes some measurable difference in the grand scheme of things is just Mother Theresa complex.

    I know you don't care for my advice, but here it is: accept that you are human and humans aren't daisies, and you'll have much fewer nightmares.
    Last edited by nisse; 12-25-2009 at 01:37 AM.

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    Junior Member Chris's Avatar
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    “If you make that choice, all the better for you, but to claim that it makes some measurable difference in the grand scheme of things is just Mother Theresa complex.”

    You begin that paragraph with, “no offense,” but mocked and dismissed me quite a bit. Hehe.

    It takes 5,000 gallons of water to produce 1 pound of meat. That’s a measurable difference. A vegan diet requires 300 gallons of water a day, conversely a meat eating diet takes more than 4,000 gallons of water.

    “Eating meat is a drop in an ocean.”

    It's more.

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    А на красивые фантики клюют даже отпетые &#108 nisse's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris View Post
    You begin that paragraph with, “no offense,” but mocked and dismissed me quite a bit. Hehe.
    I was being realistic....and I do give credit (only) where it's due - your argument about animal feed was a good one, and I doubt anyone would deny that, but the stereotypical "we're all guilty, but I've opened my eyes and am saving the world and cute little animals"-bit is very tiring. As I said, I did not want to offend you, but do recognize that the truth may not always sound nice.

    It takes 5,000 gallons of water to produce 1 pound of meat. That’s a measurable difference. A vegan diet requires 300 gallons of water a day, conversely a meat eating diet takes more than 4,000 gallons of water.
    Here's a site full of such great statistics. Somewhat outdated but uses the metric system (easier for me, and prob. some others) and has tonnes of info. The water argument is an excellent one, as agriculture is a major water user.

    However, a lot of water is also purely *wasted* on watering lawns, maintaining water features, taking excessively long showers, A/C (electricity produciton also involves water) - and this is usage that can not be justified *at all*, in my opinion, but is demed perfectly acceptable by this society. I'm not going to pretend I'm something I'm not - I'm a selfish b!tch - and simply can not find it in me to deny myself strong bones and health while those around me indulge in such frivolities AND eat all the meat/dairy they want! Like I said, if you are *that* selfless - good for you (well, I'd call it bad...what do I know)...But you are fooling yourself if you think you are making any measurable difference considering the background against which you live your life. The only real difference you're making is in your head.

    “Eating meat is a drop in an ocean.” It's more.
    You are a drop in an ocean ...of course your eating habits are too...And the West is by no means ready to adopt your selfless ways...in fact, the East is starting to be able to afford to abadon them (lol, not that it was ever about selflessness )

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